6/6 CHC @ MIL, 1:05 p.m.; TV: WGN; Radio: WGN

[VanMan]

Today, as we celebrate the anniversary of the Invasion of Normandy during World War II, has become D-Day for the Cubs in the third, final and rubber game of this series against the Milwaukee Brewers. After taking game one, 7-3, the Cubs dropped a tough game last night, 7-5, after Ted Lilly gave up six runs, including three home runs.

Today, Carlos Zambrano takes the hill and throws to Hill, Koyie Hill that is. He looks to improve on his 5-5 mark. He faces Jeff Supan in the pitching match-up.

Can someone post the starting line-ups when they're available on Gameday? I'm going to be going to lunch with my mother, and then I have to take her to the store to get a couple things.

[Doba]

SI.com had this for lineups.

A. Soriano LF
F. Pie CF
D. Lee 1B
A. Ramirez 3B
J. Jones RF
M. DeRosa 2B
R. Theriot SS
K. Hill C
C. Zambrano P

C. Hart RF
J. Hardy SS
R. Braun 3B
P. Fielder 1B
J. Estrada C
G. Jenkins LF
B. Hall CF
C. Counsell 2B
J. Suppan P

[dundeecub]

why jones over floyd? grr

other than that pretty good though.

[dundeecub]

Cubs 1st
Soriano f9
Pie 2b
Lee f8, Pie to 3rd
Aram e6, Pie scores
Jones bb
deRosa g6

Cubs 1-0

[dundeecub]

Brewers 1st
Hart K (swinging)
Hardy g6
Braun K (swinging)

[dundeecub]

Cubs 2nd
Theriot g6
Hill bb
Z 1b
Soriano f9
PIE HR
Lee bb, sb
Ramirez e6, Lee to 3rd
Jones g5

Suppan: 61 pitches through 2

Cubs 4-0

[ryno4ever]

Hi there Dundee! Pie rocks! Wow! Z should ---I stress SHOULD--be able to cruise now!

[ryno4ever]

why jones over floyd? grr

other than that pretty good though.

ESPN 1000 reported yesterday morning that we will be seeing a lot of Jones this week as Hendry is really trying hard to shop him and trade him this week. They are "showing" him for other teams, however, he isn't putting on any sort of impressive show.

[ryno4ever]

Aramis seems to be limping after hustling to first base on that hit to the shortstop that was bobbled. Gosh, I hope he is okay!

[ryno4ever]

He didn't run very hard to second on Jone's ball hit to third, but maybe because he knew it was going to turn into an out. We'll see if he comes back onto the field.

[ryno4ever]

Aramis is out of the game.

[ryno4ever]

DeRosa to third, Theriot to second, Izturis comes into play short.

[ryno4ever]

Jeez...Izturis is the new cleanup hitter!!!!!

[dundeecub]

hey heather, yep, should be a good day for Z.

thats about the only reason i could handle jones playing

RAMIREZ LEAVES THE GAME! (leg)

Izzy in to SS, DeRosa to 3rd, Theriot to 2nd

[ryno4ever]

As Z walks the leadoff hitter. He needs to buckle down now.

[ryno4ever]

No one wants Jones, though...and can you blame them? We may be stuck with him... We may see Murt go to the minors when Ward comes off the DL

[dundeecub]

Brewers 2nd
Fielder bb
Estrada f4
Jenkins g3, Fielder to 2nd
Hall f9

[dundeecub]

i think you're right about murton, if we trade z maybe we can make them take jones a la lowell being tacked onto the beckett trade to boston

[ryno4ever]

I really don't see Z going to an American league team... I think NL teams will offer way more for him than AL teams were, because they would be getting pitching and hitting in return.

[VanMan]

Thanks dundee and Heather. DeRosa grounds the first pitch to Hardy, who bobbled the ball AGAIN!!! Tried to throw to first, but well not in time. That will be his third error in as many INNINGS!

[VanMan]

They actually called that a hit. Meanwhile, Theriot grounds to third, to second for one, but the relay is not in time.

[VanMan]

Hill takes the first pitch for a strike. The 0-1 is in the dirt. Grounder to the right side, diving stop by Fielder. He flips to Suppan for the out, as Theriot advances to second.

[ryno4ever]

they gave DeRosa a hit instead of racking up another error.

[VanMan]

Zambrano takes a fastball for a strike. He swings and misses a sinker, 0-2. Ground ball goes under Fielder's glove into right field. Theriot comes around to score, it's 5-0 on Zambrano's RBI single. Now we have the pitcher doing some clutch hitting.

[ryno4ever]

Z is 2 for 2...AND has "goose eggs across the board!" THIS is the Z that we NEEDED to see today!

[VanMan]

Soriano continues the hit parade with a solid single up the middle. Z goes to second. Mike Maddux going out to talk with Suppan.

[dundeecub]

Cubs 3rd
deRosa 1b
Theriot fc, DeRosa out at 2nd
Hill g3, Theriot to 2nd
Z 1b, Theriot scores
Soriano 1b
Pie g4

Cubs 5-0, and i'll leave the pbp to eric here!

[VanMan]

Z is 2 for 2...AND has "goose eggs across the board!" THIS is the Z that we NEEDED to see today!
That we do, Heather, that we do.

Jose Capellan is up and throwing in the Brew Crew pen.

[VanMan]

Pie pulls a breaking ball inside into the stands foul. Grounder to Counsell, over to Fielder to end the inning, but the Cubs get one more on Zambrano's RBI single. There were three hits in the inning and two left.

Middle 3rd, Cubs 5, Brewers 0

[bringbacktuffy]

any word on aram's injury? at work, gameday doesnt do details.

[dundeecub]

this is pretty good stuff here, may it continue through the game.

im watching the brewers coverage, they seem concerned about the lack of long relief available in the pen today. any word on ramirez?

[VanMan]

WGN came back onto game coverage with a sign that said "Kicking dirt -n- taking names." Z throws a strike to Counsell. Counsell then fouls one off. Off speed pitch is away, 1-2. Fastball is low and away, 2-2. Counsell flies to center, Pie is there to catch the can o' corn. One out.

[VanMan]

Suppan fouls the first pitch off, then takes one low and in. Fastball is high, 2-1. Fastball is over for a strike. Suppan strikes out swinging.

[VanMan]

Nothing's been said yet about Ramirez's injury that I've heard.

[VanMan]

Off-speed pitch misses low to Hart, then inside. Hart busts his bat, foul ball. Fastball inside, 3-1. Off speed is low and away, ball four.

[bringbacktuffy]

gameday is saying its an injured knee, no specifics though

[VanMan]

Hardy takes a fastball over the middle, strike one. Ground ball to Theriot, flip to Izturis to force out Hart and retire the side. No runs, no hits, a walk, one left.

End 3rd, Cubs 5, Brewers 0

[VanMan]

gameday is saying its an injured knee, no specifics though
It was his knee? Might've sprained it on one of those ground balls.

[ARamfan]

gameday is saying its an injured knee, no specifics though

Len and Bob just said they'll have details after the commercial break.

[VanMan]

Lee takes a fastball low and away. Gotta love the look of the scoreboard. Fastball is over for a strike, 1-1. Lee fouls an off-speed pitch back, 1-2. Backdoor slider misses inside, 2-2. Grounder right back to Suppan, he had to guard his manhood, then throw over to Fielder for the out.

[dundeecub]

aflac wisconsin: who was the last cubs player to win the nl mvp?

[VanMan]

Izturis grounds a 1-0 pitch to Hardy, and he handles it this time. They said Ramirez strained his knee while beating out the second-inning grounder to Hardy.

[ryno4ever]

Left knee strain that happened when he stretched for the bag for Ram. Hyper extended it.

[VanMan]

My guess for Dundee: Sammy Sosa

[ryno4ever]

aflac wisconsin: who was the last cubs player to win the nl mvp?

Just a guess... Sosa?

[ARamfan]

Sounds like it's a left knee strain. I missed the injury and part of that inning.

[VanMan]

Floyd fouled off two pitches and took two bad ones to make it 2-2. Fastball up and in jammed Floyd, but he fouled it off. Pop up to center field, caught for the third out. Nothing going for the Cubs this time.

Middle 4th, Cubs 5, Brewers 0

[VanMan]

Just a guess... Sosa?
Beatcha to it, Heather. I'm thinking it was Sosa in the 1998 season.

[ryno4ever]

Sounds like it's a left knee strain. I missed the injury and part of that inning.

He hit a soft bouncer to the shortstop... who bobbled it. There was a close play at first, and Ram was busting butt to get to the base and stretched (and was called safe), he ran past first limping a bit. When Jones hit the ball to the 3B at the next at bat, Ram didn't hardly run at all to second. He was pulled immediately after that half inning.

[bringbacktuffy]

has anyone won it since dawson? i thought it was sammy but that just seems to obvious. hyper extended knee? is that serious? 15 day dl? worse?

[dundeecub]

Heather and Eric are right: it was Sammy Sosa.

[VanMan]

Braun fouls the first pitch off. Slider misses inside, gets away from Hill, 1-1. Fouled off Hill, 1-2. Grounder to Izturis, he can't handle it. Scored a hit.

[ryno4ever]

They give the Brewers a hit! :(.... No No No Mo

[dundeecub]

Well, z's no-no is over, such as it was

[ARamfan]

He hit a soft bouncer to the shortstop... who bobbled it. There was a close play at first, and Ram was busting butt to get to the base and stretched (and was called safe), he ran past first limping a bit. When Jones hit the ball to the 3B at the next at bat, Ram didn't hardly run at all to second. He was pulled immediately after that half inning.

Thanks for updating me on it. It happened while I was driving my son somewhere. Hopefully Aramis won't be out for long.

[VanMan]

Fielder takes the first pitch away, then fouls the 1-0. Fly ball to left field, slicing toward the line, Soriano giving chase, he makes the catch right in front of the 344 sign.

[ryno4ever]

has anyone won it since dawson? i thought it was sammy but that just seems to obvious. hyper extended knee? is that serious? 15 day dl? worse?

hopefully not... maybe benched for a couple of days. "Left Knee Strain"... but I would think he'l be on the first plane back to Chicago to see the Cubs doctors to be safe.

[bringbacktuffy]

how close was fielders fly ball to being out of the park? I hate not watching or not having radio. This is how i watched the 03 season.

[VanMan]

Estrada steps in, but Z throws over to first. Then the first pitch misses away. Estrada fouls one off to the left off the tarp. He flares one into right for a base hit in front of Jones. Braun moves over to second with one out.

[ARamfan]

Heather and Eric are right: it was Sammy Sosa.

What do they win today? :D

[ryno4ever]

Wow, I just noticed that WGN radio is actually ahead of WGN tv...ususally there is a 10 second delay after the play on the radio. Now, they are about a half a second ahead of the TV.

[VanMan]

how close was fielders fly ball to being out of the park? I hate not watching or not having radio. This is how i watched the 03 season.
It was maybe a step in front of the wall. Did not have home-run distance.

[dundeecub]

jones' arm is a joke, he completely airmailed izturis there for no good reason... get him out of here jim!

[ryno4ever]

What do they win today? :D

I'll settle for a Cubs "W"! If you wanna throw in a Cards and Pirates "L", I'll take that too!

[VanMan]

What do they win today? :D
Very funny, Mara!

[bringbacktuffy]

hopefully not... maybe benched for a couple of days. "Left Knee Strain"... but I would think he'l be on the first plane back to Chicago to see the Cubs doctors to be safe.

yeah, that sounds reasonable. Thanks

[ryno4ever]

I really like this Hill kid behind the plate.

[VanMan]

Back to the game, Jenkins has a 1-2 count...

He swings and misses for strike three, two out with two on.

[dundeecub]

What do they win today? :D

my commendations:

'well done!'

[VanMan]

I really like this Hill kid behind the plate.
We have Rich Hill, Koyie Hill, we used to have a guy named Damon Barryhill. Just think if we have a guy named Blu Barry-Hill. We'd have our thrill there! :D

[ARamfan]

I really like this Hill kid behind the plate.

Yes, he's done well so far.

[VanMan]

Back to the action, a 2-1 count to Hall. Z's pitch misses inside, 3-1. Soft liner hit to Theriot for the final out of the inning. No runs, two hits, two left.

End 4th, Cubs 5, Brewers 0

[dundeecub]

I really like this Hill kid behind the plate.

i'm not convinced, and its says a lot about what the cubs think of soto, especially with barrett's contract expiring. thoughts about trying to get saltalamacchia out of atlanta?

[bringbacktuffy]

i'm not convinced, and its says a lot about what the cubs think of soto, especially with barrett's contract expiring. thoughts about trying to get saltalamacchia out of atlanta?

As great as that would be, I think the braves are grooming him to play 1st. Can't be certain though.

[ryno4ever]

We have Rich Hill, Koyie Hill, we used to have a guy named Damon Barryhill. Just think if we have a guy named Blu Barry-Hill. We'd have our thrill there! :D

Now you really sound like Pat Hughes! Len and Bob the other night were having all sorts of fun with the "play on names" of the Cubs and Brewers last names! After about 5 minutes of going on and on using the last names in their conversations, Len laughs and tells Bob that listeners must think they were 3 "Sheets" to the wind! Grin and "Barrett".

[VanMan]

DeRosa flied to Hall, and then Theriot doubled to left-center.

[VanMan]

Now you really sound like Pat Hughes! Len and Bob the other night were having all sorts of fun with the "play on names" of the Cubs and Brewers last names! After about 5 minutes of going on and on using the last names in their conversations, Len laughs and tells Bob that listeners must think they were 3 "Sheets" to the wind! Grin and "Barrett".
That was what I was trying to do.

Hill takes a ball away. He then swings and misses at a low pitch. Fastball away, 2-1. Grounder to Hardy, a look to third, Theriot already made it there, throw to Fielder to get Hill.

[VanMan]

Z takes a big cut on the first pitch, misses. Curve away is swung and missed, 0-2. High fastball, check swing, no swing. Curve is over for a called third strike. No runs, a hit, one left.

Middle 5th, Cubs 5, Brewers 0

[CubsFan23]

As great as that would be, I think the braves are grooming him to play 1st. Can't be certain though.

But more of a backup I would think. They still have Thorman to play first. Thorman is good, why else would they trade away LaRoche, of course looking at LaRoche's numbers this year I can see why.

[VanMan]

Counsell takes a slider inside. Gabe Gross is on deck. Fastball is over for a strike. Popped up foul back out of play. WGN was showing some ripped guy in a flannel shirt and sporting a mullett. Fly ball to left-center, Pie over to make the catch.

[CubsFan23]

Hill and Hill sounds like a law firm.

[VanMan]

Tony Gwinn will now bat for Suppan, he takes the first two pitches for called strikes. Swing and a miss on a 96mph heater!

[VanMan]

Hill and Hill sounds like a law firm.
Actually, that was our battery back on Saturday.

[VanMan]

Hart on a 1-1 pitch flies to Pie for the final out. Z still cruising along.

End 5th, Cubs 5, Brewers 0

[bringbacktuffy]

yeah probably. I wonder what it would take to get salty from the braves. God knows they won't take JJ for him.

[CubsFan23]

We have left 13 men on base already!

[CubsFan23]

Actually, that was our battery back on Saturday.

I know. My wife and daughters thought that was funny. My oldest asked if they were brothers.

[VanMan]

Jose Capellon is in relief and thows his first pitch to Soriano low. Soriano then fouls the next one off. Fastball is high, 94mph, 2-1. Grounder up the middle, Counsell was playing right behind the bag, he lets it bounce off his chest, and makes the play.

[VanMan]

Pie takes a strike, then allows one to go away. He swings and misses one in the dirt. Pop fly to short right-center, Counsell is there for the catch.

[VanMan]

Lee fouls the first pitch back. Another foul ball off to the right, 0-2. Change up is over for a called strike three. Nothing doing in the sixth for the Cubs.

Middle 6th, Cubs 5, Brewers 0

[CubsFan23]

Come DLEE! He is 1 for 11 in this series.

[bringbacktuffy]

is any else concerned that dlee has been striking out a lately? or am i imagining this?

[VanMan]

yeah probably. I wonder what it would take to get salty from the braves. God knows they won't take JJ for him.
I think the Braves might take Mr. Peanut and Tony the Tiger for Mr. Salty. :)

[CubsFan23]

DLee strikes out. Now 1 for 12 in the series.

[CubsFan23]

The Braves definitely would not take JJ.

Especially since they have Frenchy in Right.

[bringbacktuffy]

did they give the alfac trivia answer yet?

[VanMan]

is any else concerned that dlee has been striking out a lately? or am i imagining this?
I'd be more concerned if the rest of the team wasn't hitting, but they are.

[VanMan]

Z pumps a sinker to Hardy for a strike, but then missed one low. Another sinker misses low and away. Sinker misses low, 3-1. Foul bal to the screen, full count. Foul ball catches Randy Marsh off the mask. Slider is called for strike three.

[ARamfan]

I'd be more concerned if the rest of the team wasn't hitting, but they are.

I'm thankful for that right now.

[ryno4ever]

is any else concerned that dlee has been striking out a lately? or am i imagining this?

Pitchers are changing the way they pitch to him. His power comes from the inside of the plate, but they are pitching him down and away.

[CubsFan23]

did they give the alfac trivia answer yet?

What was the question. I am at work so cannot watch the game.

[CubsFan23]

DLee will come out of it he is too good a hitter to stay in a slump for long.

[VanMan]

Fastball to Braun is a strike. Another one is low and away, but 94mph. Fouled back, 2-1. Fastball up and in, 2-2. Sinker is low, full. Fastball misses outside, Braun walks.

[ryno4ever]

What was the question. I am at work so cannot watch the game.

Who was the last Cub to win the NL MVP? It was Sosa.

[VanMan]

Fielder takes the first pitch to the bottom of the scoreboard for a two-run home run, it's 5-2.

[bringbacktuffy]

they've been pitching him away all year which at least patially explains his HR totals. He's been getting a lot of his hits going opposite field, it just seems lately he's looking at strike 3 quite a bit. now with ARAM out for at least a few games, i'm worrying.

[VanMan]

What was the question. I am at work so cannot watch the game.
That was on FSN Wisconsin. They asked who was the Cubs' last NL MVP, and it was Sosa.

[dundeecub]

lee has been pretty average of late, a case of the jjs perhaps.

it would take a lot to get saltalamacchia, i think maybe marshall (they would want pitching), and someone like epatt would be necessary. but worthwhile. unless we take weiters in the draft our longterm catching sucks.

[CubsFan23]

Who was the last Cub to win the NL MVP? It was Sosa.

In 1998 when he and Mac were in the home run race. I remeber every complaining that Mac broke the record and should have won it. That Sosa only won because the Cubs had a winning team.

[VanMan]

Z's been gassing it up today. He's been hitting 94-96 on the gun much of the day, then dialing it back to 85 on the slider. Meanwhile Estrada strikes out swinging.

[CubsFan23]

Fielder takes the first pitch to the bottom of the scoreboard for a two-run home run, it's 5-2.

Damn that boy is killing us!

[ARamfan]

I am at work so cannot watch the game.

I'm working (work from a home office), but I'm not getting a lot done since no one is here to stop me from watching the game. :D

[CubsFan23]

I'm working (work from a home office), but I'm not getting a lot done since no one is here to stop me from watching the game. :D

Lucky you! Of course maybe that is why I do not work form home, I would watch baseball all day.

[VanMan]

Jenkins gets a two-out single to left past Izturis.

[bringbacktuffy]

Is there any point to throwing fielder a strike? Good god. I heard someone say that he hit a ball out of tiger stadium when he was 12. Yeah, 12.

[VanMan]

Rothschild is talking to Z right now following the single.

[VanMan]

Is there any point to throwing fielder a strike? Good god. I heard someone say that he hit a ball out of tiger stadium when he was 12. Yeah, 12.
He's his father's son. Cecil was a mamouth hitter.

[CubsFan23]

Is there any point to throwing fielder a strike? Good god. I heard someone say that he hit a ball out of tiger stadium when he was 12. Yeah, 12.


I heard that too. I also hear that he has not talked to Cecil in like 3 years or so.

[bringbacktuffy]

At work as well. Not getting much done either.

[VanMan]

Hall takes the first pitch for a strike, then fouls one away, 0-2. Matt Wise is in the pen for Milwaukee. Fastball is swung and missed to end the inning. However, the Brewers get two hits, two runs on Fielder's huge blast, a walk and one left.

End 6th, Cubs 5, Brewers 2

I'm now taking bets on the Sausage Race!

[CubsFan23]

Talk must have worked Z K's Hall.

[dundeecub]

it wasnt out of tiger stadium, it was into the upper tier. but still!

[CubsFan23]

Hall takes the first pitch for a strike, then fouls one away, 0-2. Matt Wise is in the pen for Milwaukee. Fastball is swung and missed to end the inning. However, the Brewers get two hits, two runs on Fielder's huge blast, a walk and one left.

End 6th, Cubs 5, Brewers 2

I'm now taking bets on the Sausage Race!

Chorizo!

[VanMan]

Winner of the Sausage Race, Hot Dog!

[bringbacktuffy]

I heard that too. I also hear that he has not talked to Cecil in like 3 years or so.

Thats interesting considering how much they have in common. Prince may have a bit more athletic ability than his dad. I remember when cecil hit 50 HRs in 88 or 89. That was a huge deal, now 50 in a year is commonplace.

[VanMan]

Grounder to Capellon from Izturis, over to Fielder for the out.

[CubsFan23]

Winner of the Sausage Race, Hot Dog!

Should have stuck with my instinct. I was going to say Hot Dag but with with the Chorizo, being so close to Mexico and all.

[VanMan]

Well, I have to go, see you guys tomorrow night. Time to get ready for work.

[CubsFan23]

Thats interesting considering how much they have in common. Prince may have a bit more athletic ability than his dad. I remember when cecil hit 50 HRs in 88 or 89. That was a huge deal, now 50 in a year is commonplace.

I guess the rift happened after Cecil divorced Prince's Mom and something about Cecil having a gambling problem. I only caught bits and pieces of it on XM a few weeks ago.

[CubsFan23]

Well, I have to go, see you guys tomorrow night. Time to get ready for work.

Catch ya later have fun at work.

[dundeecub]

Thats interesting considering how much they have in common.

Seemingly Cecil went gambling with Prince's signing bonus...

[CubsFan23]

JJ strikes out and DeRosa grounds out to second.

MID 7 Cubs 5 Brewers 2

[CubsFan23]

Seemingly Cecil went gambling with Prince's signing bonus...

Not a bright move. Though I hear Cecil says that everything is good between him and Prince. Guess Prince does not agree.

[dundeecub]

Not a bright move. Though I hear Cecil says that everything is good between him and Prince. Guess Prince does not agree.

That was just a quick wiki-ing, don't know if its resolved or not, but would make sense as the root...

[ryno4ever]

Carlos give Graffinino a Strikeout for his birthday!

[dundeecub]

Brewers 7th
Counsell f7
Graffanino K
Hart 1b, sb

Marmol in for Z, Zambrano looks pissed

Hardy f7

[CubsFan23]

Brewers 7th
Counsell f7
Graffanino K
Hart 1b

Marmol in for Z, Zambrano looks pissed

When doesn't Carlos look pissed when he gets taken out of a game.

[CubsFan23]

I wish they would have put Gallagher in, I wanted to see what the lad could od.

[CubsFan23]

Long fly ball caught by Soriano.

End 7 Cubs 5 Brewers 2

[dundeecub]

Cubs 8th
Theriot K
Kill K
Murton (ph) f3

[dundeecub]

Brewers 8th
Howry pitching
Braun K
Fielder 1b
Estradra gdp 4-6-3

[dundeecub]

Cubs 9th
Soriano f9
Pie 1b, sb
Lee f9 (1 for 13 in the series)
Izturis e3, Pie scores, sb
Jones f8

Cubs 6-2

[CubsFan23]

Pie is 3 for 5 today. This kid is definitely showing he belongs. I think he is also playing with a chip on his shoulder from being sent back down.

[CubsFan23]

Izzy comes through Cubs up 6-2. Think we will still see Demps in the ninth?

[dundeecub]

Pie's looked good, hopefully he's here for the rest of the year.

It will be Demp...

[Doba]

Dempster walked Cousell on four pitches. How did he end up on second?

[CubsFan23]

CUBS WIN HOLY COW CUBS WIN!!!

[ARamfan]

CUBS WIN! CUBS WIN! 2 of 3 from the Brewers! :cool:

[CubsFan23]

Dempster walked Cousell on four pitches. How did he end up on second?

He took second on defensive indifference.

[dundeecub]

Brewers 9th
Jenkins g4
Hall f8
Counsell bb, 2b on def. indifference
Gross p5

Cubs win 6-2!

[CubsFan23]

CUBS WIN! CUBS WIN! 2 of 3 from the Brewers! :cool:

We needed that big time!

[Doba]

He took second on defensive indifference.

I read that on SI.com, but how exactly did that happen?

[dundeecub]

Hill just didn't throw or even shape to throw.