Pie still struggling [Archive]

ryno4ever

Nov 26th 2007, 5:18 pm

in the Domincan League.

Through Friday, Pie was batting .203 in 20 games for Licey, with four doubles, one homer, six walks and 14 strikeouts. He's still struggling against lefties, hitting .160 compared to .227 vs. right-handers, and, for some reason, he's thriving in road games, hitting .304 compared to .152 at home.

On the positive side, he has four walks and has struck out five times in his last 10 games, after beginning with two walks and nine K's in his first 10. It's a start. He's young (22) and has to learn to make adjustments.

This is from Cubs.com....yet here is the link (http://mlb.mlb.com/milb/stats/stats.jsp?sid=l131&t=t_ibp&cid=672)to the most updated stats.... he is still only batting .208. In my opinion, he cannot even be considered for the center field position......

Sam Fuld, (http://mlb.mlb.com/milb/stats/stats.jsp?n=Sam%20Fuld&pos=OF&sid=l119&t=p_pbp&pid=453539) on the other hand....is batting .402 with 3 homers, 14 RBI's and 10 stolen bases......for the Mesa Solar Sox. He is batting .500 against lefties, and .360 vs righties....

I really hope they give this kid a chance and do what they have to do with Pie....

BigZ38

Nov 26th 2007, 5:31 pm

Pie will be an outstanding DEFENSIVE center fielder.....do we really need more offense?? They should just give him the job and let him figure it out with consistent playing time.

ChiCubs1984

Nov 26th 2007, 6:06 pm

I am still not convinced Pie is ready for the Majors yet. I don't think the Cubs should hand him the center field job because really he hasn't earned it.

BigZ38

Nov 26th 2007, 6:18 pm

I am still not convinced Pie is ready for the Majors yet. I don't think the Cubs should hand him the center field job because really he hasn't earned it.

I understand but why not just let him go out and play and have him figure out big leauge pitching without the pressure of having to have a great offensive year? He is probably our best defensive option, I just think that if he gets the job it would help him develop because he's obviously better than AAA. Let him play I say.

Bockstock

Nov 26th 2007, 11:49 pm

Last year he struggled because he mainly played against LHP

It wouldn't suprise me if they were doing that again this wint\er.

ChiCubs1984

Nov 27th 2007, 7:47 am

Well I do like his defense no argument here, but I would like my outfielders to bat higher than .213 thats not going to get it done even with the wind blowing out.

roenick99

Nov 27th 2007, 8:18 am

Pie will be an outstanding DEFENSIVE center fielder.....do we really need more offense?? They should just give him the job and let him figure it out with consistent playing time.

Do a google search for "Cubs 2007 Playoff Highlights". You won't find anything but some kid's YouTube video of his 2007 video game highlights. Why are there no highlights do you ask? Because there was no offense and the Cubs were swept in embarrassing fashion. The Cubs need a bat in the outfield. I would love to see Pie and his defense out there, but he HAS to hit higher than .215 and produce runs. He just has to...

LeeEila's/rant

Nov 27th 2007, 12:07 pm

Pie is a career AAA ballplayer , nothing more . I saw nothing that would bring him into the majors . I would take Sam Fuld over him any day .

Bockstock

Nov 27th 2007, 12:26 pm

Pie is a career AAA ballplayer , nothing more . I saw nothing that would bring him into the majors . I would take Sam Fuld over him any day .

Wow

Pie is only 22. Fuld is already 26. Fuld is a nice player because the Cubs have him under control for 5-6 years, but I can't believe people are clamoring for Fuld after only 7-8 at-bats. He doesn't project to have nearly the kind of power he showed against the the extremely watered down pitching AFL.

ryno4ever

Nov 27th 2007, 9:49 pm

Fuld was named MVP of the Arizona Fall League.... and the Hendry was on Sports Central and said that both Pie and Fuld will be in the center field position this coming year, as to who is the everyday CF, he said that will be up to Lou come the Spring. Hendry is going to be looking for that left handed or switch hitting right fielder.

Bockstock

Nov 27th 2007, 10:54 pm

Fuld was named MVP of the Arizona Fall League.... and the Hendry was on Sports Central and said that both Pie and Fuld will be in the center field position this coming year.

Fuld, like Theriot a good cheap player, but I would hardly expect the power numbers he put up in AFL.

Rotoworld's take

Fuld was little more than an afterthought in the Cubs' organization as late as August, but he received a September callup because of Angel Pagan's injury and Eric Patterson's punitive demotion and that helped his case for a spot on an AFL roster. It was in Arizona that he made a name for himself, batting .402 and leading the league with a .492 OBP and a .626 SLG. At 5-foot-10 and 180 pounds, Fuld, a Stanford product, doesn't generate much home run power. However, he makes an awful lot of contact and still maintains a respectable walk rate. It's just too bad he doesn't throw right-handed, because he has a second baseman's build. As an outfielder, he's a weak option in center and he doesn't offer the kind of bat one looks for in a corner guy. Perhaps he'll put together a career as a reserve anyway, but he probably won't ever offer much in the way of fantasy value.

I believe Fuld is also a Stats Major, so he is obviously a smart guy; Analytical Stats blow, it takes an attentive mind to soldier through all that crap.

taz57

Nov 28th 2007, 12:33 am

Pie's recent struggles could be as a result of Piniella suggesting that he shorten up his swing. He might just be working on the adjustment more than concentrating on putting up statistics. If the Cubs can sign a lefthanded hitting rightfielder with a good OBP. a CF platoon of Pie and Fuld would work.

HEYHEY

Nov 29th 2007, 5:57 pm

Pie is going to be a star in this league.Mark my words

LeeEila's/rant

Nov 30th 2007, 7:44 am

Pie is going to be a star in this league.Mark my words

In order for your prediction to come to be he will have to completely relearn all fundamentals . I don't see that happening .

Bockstock

Nov 30th 2007, 9:15 am

In order for your prediction to come to be he will have to completely relearn all fundamentals . I don't see that happening .

What exactly does that mean??

1. LIke I said, last year, he played almost exclusively played against LHP; I wouldn't be suprised if they were following a similar formular thi year

2. They are shortening up his swing. Do you really expect results to come overnight?

3. He has already raised his OPS 200 Points the last 10 days.

Once again, he's only 22. It amazes me how many people are ready to give up on Pie/Cedeno and instead clamor for players who at the prime of their careers are projected to have no better than above average production.

If you are a great defensive CF, you only have to be marginally succesful with the bat to be considered a + at that position.

bringbacktuffy

Nov 30th 2007, 10:17 am

If Pie could learn some and patience and how to bunt, he would be a star in this league. A juan Pierre with power. That would be outstanding if he could learn that while still in pinstripes.

BigZ38

Nov 30th 2007, 3:50 pm

He just needs CONSISTENT PLAYING TIME.....yes even when he struggles. He needs to figure it out and be able to make adjustments. That will happen with experience and coaching.

SkullKey

Nov 30th 2007, 9:30 pm

It would be a shame to call his career a bust after 177 Major league at-bats. Fairness dictates he gets another 250 - 300 before any real judgement happens (unless he just completely falls flat on his face).

He's produced 38 hits and 14 walks from those 177 official at-bats. About 52 times on base (I don't know if he's been HBP or something like that). He's scored 26 times already. If you score 50 % of the time you get on base you'll likely lead the Major Leagues in that catagory (Kaz Matsui lead the Majors last year with 47%. Pie scored 45%+ twice in the Minors - it's not a fluke. He gets on: he's got an excellent chance of scoring.). A guy who scores that much when he gets on is very valuable and maybe that's also part of the reason he seems like such a spark to the team (and the fans) and brings such excitement to the ballpark.

Two of my favorite managers ever are Whitey Herzog and Earl Weaver - 2 mid-western boys and 2 of the best managers ever. Just about as opposite as they could be but both absolutely had to have - insisted upon - rock solid defense up the middle (that included 3rd) and error free ballplaying. Weaver believed in defense so much he carried for over 15 years a guy named Mark Belanger who put togeather a career .228 average - with none of the speed and pop a Pie has (in 18 seasons Belanger hit 20 HR). Belanger never scored over 76 runs but his defense was considered so solid and important he was out there every day. (Belanger was followed by Ripken Jr. - Wow ! - 4 decades with just 2 shortstops.)

Pie might be that kind of player except I think he will figure it out sometime in 2008. Pie never hit under .288 in the Minors and that was 2006 at Iowa (I'm throwing out 8 ABs at Boise). In 2007 in 229 AAA at-bats he adjusted , figured it out and came back with a .362 batting average - and there are good pitchers in AAA.

Sam Fuld is very interesting and Eric Patterson is extremely interesting to me (and a real CF wildcard for 2008) but let's give Pie a little more time.

I would guess at the very least he would make an exceptional defensive oriented 4th outfielder. He's too good for AAA - he's proven that.

[Correction: Pie hit .285 in 505 at-bats in 2003 at Lansing. His lowest batting average ever prior to the Majors. He followed that with .297 at Daytona: as a 19 year old. I'm guessing he'll settle in at .285 or so in the Majors - maybe about .350 - .360 OBP. He might be a lot better. He might flop - I think Corey Patterson shook us all up with his disappointments - or he might tear it up. I think he's closer to tearing it up but I know 1 thing for certain: he needs more than 177 ABs to judged.]

missing23

Dec 1st 2007, 4:33 pm

weeghman

Dec 1st 2007, 4:53 pm

Pie is another bust like Corey Patterson and his brother...I can just sense NONE of these guys will ever be able to hit in the majors...because the Cubs have been SO slow for SO long they think because these guys can run they can hit...WRONG!

It is not just the Cub's who have thought Pie is going to be good. Until his less than impressive callups this year, Pie has been one of the most sought after Minor League prospect in baseball. I would hesitate to write off a 22 year old with his talent because he didn't come up like Braun and Pence this year. He could still develope into a solid player.

missing23

Dec 1st 2007, 5:05 pm

It is not just the Cub's who have thought Pie is going to be good. Until his less than impressive callups this year, Pie has been one of the most sought after Minor League prospect in baseball. I would hesitate to write off a 22 year old with his talent because he didn't come up like Braun and Pence this year. He could still develope into a solid player.

I agree that it is still too early...but I didn't see ANYTHING with him at the plate...and, frankly, I don't think he is that great in the OF...average certainly but Jones was just as good and could hit...JJ got a bad rap in Chicago.

Bockstock

Dec 1st 2007, 7:37 pm

...JJ got a bad rap in Chicago.

JJ got a bad rap in Chicago because he was the typical Cub player, very streaky hitting, no plate discipline, terrible on the base paths, and a bad arm in the OF.

For the record, I thought the Cubs should have held onto Jones until they found another OF, but Jones was an unnecessary signing, just another of Hendry's obsession with having a LH bat in the OF, which has also given us such gems as Hollandsworth and Burnitz.

Once again, I love how people will seeemingly bash Pie. Look up the #'s some established players put up when they were 22. Not everybody is Miguel Cabrera or Pujols.

weeghman

Dec 1st 2007, 9:24 pm

Once again, I love how people will seeemingly bash Pie. Look up the #'s some established players put up when they were 22. Not everybody is Miguel Cabrera or Pujols.

Very well said.

ryno4ever

Dec 1st 2007, 9:39 pm

missing23

Dec 2nd 2007, 12:04 am

Once again, I love how people will seeemingly bash Pie. Look up the #'s some established players put up when they were 22. Not everybody is Miguel Cabrera or Pujols.

Suspect him for GOOD reason because Pie has shown NOTHING in the majors so far...he HAS played SIX seasons in the minors, so how long IS the wait?!...he looks like crap in the spring, during the season and during whatever ball he plays...let's see...he can't hit breaking balls...he can't bunt...he can't draw walks...he looks shaky on challenging flys...hmmm, 'let's see how he matures!' is the ONLY answer you can give because he has been pretty pi$$ poor so far...I'm rooting for him but I just don't see it.

weeghman

Dec 2nd 2007, 2:00 am

Suspect him for GOOD reason because Pie has shown NOTHING in the majors so far...he HAS played SIX seasons in the minors, so how long IS the wait?!...he looks like crap in the spring, during the season and during whatever ball he plays...let's see...he can't hit breaking balls...he can't bunt...he can't draw walks...he looks shaky on challenging flys...hmmm, 'let's see how he matures!' is the ONLY answer you can give because he has been pretty pi$$ poor so far...I'm rooting for him but I just don't see it.

I only get the WGN televised games but the games I saw that Pie played in he was pretty damn good defensivly.

Willie Mays only hit .260 with a OBP around .330 prior to the age of 23. I do believe he turned out to be an alright ball player.
Kirby Puckett didn't even play in the majors before he was 24.
The one that should get everyones attention, Lou Brock batted .258 with a OBP of .262 prior to the age of 25.

Out of curiosity, How good were you the first year you were at your job? Give the kid time. He has the tools, let him sharpen them.;)

taz57

Dec 2nd 2007, 3:35 am

I'm all willing to give him a shot....if and when he is ready. I don't want him to be run out of town with the high expectations/low performance problem that we saw with Corey Patterson. If they label him as the "everyday center fielder" and doesn't perform up to expectations, it will get into his head and just hurt his progress.

When Soriano arrived at spring training a week early last season, it was Pie that got him comfortable with his new surroundings. Next spring training, I think Soriano will do anything he can to help Pie make the jump from AAA to the big leagues. I think it's a good thing that both of them have become so close, and are willing to help each other. I would like to see a Soriano/Pie outfield for years to come.

missing23

Dec 2nd 2007, 9:01 am

I only get the WGN televised games but the games I saw that Pie played in he was pretty damn good defensivly.

Willie Mays only hit .260 with a OBP around .330 prior to the age of 23. I do believe he turned out to be an alright ball player.
Kirby Puckett didn't even play in the majors before he was 24.
The one that should get everyones attention, Lou Brock batted .258 with a OBP of .262 prior to the age of 25.

Out of curiosity, How good were you the first year you were at your job? Give the kid time. He has the tools, let him sharpen them.;)

I just get a VERY strong sense that Pie is another Patterson. This spring will be huge for him and unfortunately I expect him to be riding pine during the summer again unless he somehow learns to hit MLB pitching.

SkullKey

Dec 3rd 2007, 1:49 am

The latest news on the Kid from the D.R. (the Muskrat's column dateline late Sunday evening):

" ..... The Cubs have Alfonso Soriano in left field, and Felix Pie most likely will start in center when the 2008 season opens March 31. Hendry was in the Dominican Republic last week to watch Pie, and was happy with the improvements.

"He's made a lot of effort since the season," Hendry said of Pie. "[Cubs hitting coach] Gerald Perry was down there when I was. The kid's an outstanding human being, he's working very hard at his craft, making a lot of adjustments at the plate, shortened his swing, working the count better, and played well. He's playing tremdendous defense, which shouldn't surprise anybody."

Pie was batting .227 with two homers, seven doubles, and 12 RBIs in 28 games for Licey, and Hendry said the stats don't tell the story of how well the young outfielder was doing.

"Let's not forget, down there, that's their season," he said. "It's not like he's in an Instructional League. I think he's blending a positive of changing a lot of things and still doing well enough to help them win games. They're in first place, and his numbers on paper aren't great, but his at-bats are better than his numbers."

Sounds good to me - very encouraging. The kid works, listens, learns and adapts. Corey Patterson wouldn't change and adapt if peeing his pants had been his problem. A lot of major Leaguers don't adapt.

I think the kid is going to do very well - the Cubs sure need it and deserve it.

http://mlb.mlb.com/news/article.jsp?ymd=20071202&content_id=2315523&vkey=news_chc&fext=.jsp&c_id=chc&partnered=rss_chc

BigZ38

Dec 3rd 2007, 7:30 am

I understand how everyone feels about Patterson because he was a bust but wasn't he having a spectacular '03 season until he went down with a knee injury? Yeah he was a bust but he still showed something at one time. I'm sick of this entire discussion.....Pie is young and people are already writing him off.

missing23

Dec 3rd 2007, 9:42 am

Bockstock

Dec 3rd 2007, 11:56 am

Blah, blah, blah...

LOL

I have a great idea, let's talk baseball and let emotions cloud any reasonable discussion.

I understand how/why people become emotional about Pie/Prior situations, based on previous patterned thinking.

If I recall correctly, it was Patterson who refused to play winter ball, alter his swinging mechanics, etc. So far, the attitude displayed by Pie has been a complete 180.

LeeEila's/rant

Dec 3rd 2007, 12:17 pm

Suspect him for GOOD reason because Pie has shown NOTHING in the majors so far...he HAS played SIX seasons in the minors, so how long IS the wait?!...he looks like crap in the spring, during the season and during whatever ball he plays...let's see...he can't hit breaking balls...he can't bunt...he can't draw walks...he looks shaky on challenging flys...hmmm, 'let's see how he matures!' is the ONLY answer you can give because he has been pretty pi$$ poor so far...I'm rooting for him but I just don't see it.

I could not agree more !! You obviously have been watching the same Pie I have been . Most of his awe inspiring catches he made in center was because he took the wrong jump on routine fly balls and had to run ass over elbows to make the catch.

missing23

Dec 3rd 2007, 4:42 pm

LOL

I have a great idea, let's talk baseball and let emotions cloud any reasonable discussion.

I understand how/why people become emotional about Pie/Prior situations, based on previous patterned thinking.

If I recall correctly, it was Patterson who refused to play winter ball, alter his swinging mechanics, etc. So far, the attitude displayed by Pie has been a complete 180.

If only attitude can hit .300, or even .280, or even .250...shoot Felix can barely hit his weight...:p:D

missing23

Dec 3rd 2007, 4:45 pm

I could not agree more !! You obviously have been watching the same Pie I have been . Most of his awe inspiring catches he made in center was because he took the wrong jump on routine fly balls and had to run ass over elbows to make the catch.

Yep...he makes the easy in the OF look hard...he really makes every fly ball an adventure...you just don't get the feeling that he has it when the ball goes off the bat...and to top it off he can't hit...he can run though so the Cubs will have a pinchrunner when they need him just as they used him for most of last season.

Again, I hope he turns out to be the real deal but I just don't see it...I mean you can just tell with some guys at the plate that they are hitters...the only thing I think when Pie is at the plate is that I sure hope he bunts it or hits a weak grounder because that will be 50% of his chances to get on base.

NeifiPerezMVP2007

Dec 3rd 2007, 5:55 pm

Yep...he makes the easy in the OF look hard...he really makes every fly ball an adventure...you just don't get the feeling that he has it when the ball goes off the bat...and to top it off he can't hit...he can run though so the Cubs will have a pinchrunner when they need him just as they used him for most of last season.

Again, I hope he turns out to be the real deal but I just don't see it...I mean you can just tell with some guys at the plate that they are hitters...the only thing I think when Pie is at the plate is that I sure hope he bunts it or hits a weak grounder because that will be 50% of his chances to get on base.

Some of these reasons I'm hearing sound like the same reasons for trading Lou Brock. Like Pie, Brock struck out quite a bit, and like Brock, he didn't hit .300 in his first season. In fact, Brock had not hit .300 until his 3rd full season, and Brock didn't hit .300 lifetime. 1730 K's to 761 walks. Brock had a .343 OBP lifetime.

Don't get me wrong, I know Pie is no Brock, but they put up VERY similar stats their first season. Give the guy a break, last season was his MLB debut, and hes only like 23 years old. You all sound like hes entering hit 4th season.

NeifiPerezMVP2007

Dec 3rd 2007, 5:58 pm

Oh and they traded him because Brock played only night games, and playing day games he lost the ball.

Bockstock

Dec 3rd 2007, 9:43 pm

The Twins should have cut this guy when he was 22

106 AB 30 K .226/.287/.277 - He is just frickin terrible

Or don't forget about this 23 year old loser from the Rockies, he put up a stellar 159/205/188 through his first 70 AB, and he was a college product

I love this.

Somehow, Pie isn't allowed to struggle as a rookie, but if a 28 year old in his third MLB season puts up only a .692 OPS, in the bottom 5 of his position in the MLB, and is dead last on the team in P/PA with the lowest OBP for a regular starter, he is considered a "Team MVP", and a lock for the starting job the next season.

The Cubs should just start all the "gritty", "underdog" players next year; Theriot, Fontenont, Fuld, DeRosa in RF. Hey, the Cubs may not win 70 games, but at least they are "playing the game the right way" and showing some "Grit"

BTW FU Baltimore. Brian Billick, your team sucks.

Bockstock

Dec 3rd 2007, 9:48 pm

Oh and they traded him because Brock played only night games, and playing day games he lost the ball.

HaHa, good to know some things never change

"We still like Murton," Hendry said. "We think Murt's an everyday big-leaguer. He knows we all like him. Life would be a lot easier if Murton were left-handed."

NeifiPerezMVP2007

Dec 3rd 2007, 10:58 pm

HaHa, good to know some things never change

Indeed Brockstock, indeed.

LeeEila's/rant

Dec 4th 2007, 9:34 am

Pie has been in the farm system for over 5 years . It was also his 3rd call up.

Bockstock

Dec 6th 2007, 12:07 am

Pie has been in the farm system for over 5 years . It was also his 3rd call up.

Gee, he was signed when he was 16.

Theriot = 6 years in the minors Plus College

I don't want to hate on Theriot. The man does the most with his ability and size, which I think everyone can support. But, the fact is that his ability is very limited.

missing23

Dec 6th 2007, 8:10 am

Gee, he was signed when he was 16.

Theriot = 6 years in the minors Plus College

I don't want to hate on Theriot. The man does the most with his ability and size, which I think everyone can support. But, the fact is that his ability is very limited.

I'll put the rest of your rant in...

"I find it funny people ripping at Pie's #'s at the plate, yet turn around and call Ryan Theriot a "team MVP" when he put up the worst stats by far of any regular on the team last year, and besides July, never had one month of an OBP above .350. The fact that people call for him to be the lead-off guy (worst P/PA of any player on the team, yes including Koyie Hill) makes it all the more humorous."

Well, I don't think Theriot is MVP but he did hit close to .300 for most of the season until a late season tail off...Pie never even sniffed anything close to .300 let alone even .250...Pie hit 40 points less than Theriot ended up at which is a huge difference...shoot for all we know right now Theriot's 143 hits might be more than Pie gets in his MLB career.

Potential is one thing but Felix looks clueless at the plate...I hope he gets 'it' at some point but from what I have seen that is doubtful.

I just hope some of the rumors out there indicating Pie might be moved in trades are true because he may never have more value than now.:D

Bockstock

Dec 6th 2007, 8:49 am

Well, I don't think Theriot is MVP but he did hit close to .300 for most of the season until a late season tail off...
Potential is one thing but Felix looks clueless at the plate...I hope he gets 'it' at some point but from what I have seen that is doubtful.

I just hope some of the rumors out there indicating Pie might be moved in trades are true because he may never have more value than now.:D

Theriot did not bat .300 most of the season.

Theriot had only two months (April . 299, July .348) where his BA was around or above 300 and his OBP above .340. The rest of the season he was nowhere near these marks.

I would be all for trading Pie if it would net the Cubs a major upgrade at SS. Why not throw Pie in with the Roberts talk to see if the Orioles will send back Tejada??

Apparently, Hendry has said the Cubs "can't afford" Tejada even though it seemed they were ready to piss away $15 Million on Matsui.

weeghman

Dec 6th 2007, 9:25 am

Getting Roberts actually would make me more comfortable with having Theriot as an everyday player cause he could bat in the 8 hole where I think he is actually more valuable. I still think if they could throw Pie in on the Roberts deal and get Bedard it would make our rotation as formidable as anyones in the NL. If Hendry could pull that off and sign Fukudome our lineup is.

Roberts
Fukudome
ARam
Dlee
Soriano
DeRosa
Murton
Theriot

And the Rotation is...

Zam
Bedard
Lilly
Hill
Marquis? (hopefully better)

That is a good looking team.

Bockstock

Dec 6th 2007, 9:36 am

Roberts
Fukudome
ARam
Dlee
Soriano
DeRosa
Murton
Theriot

.

Everything I've read as Murton in the Roberts trade. Murton's name as also been brought up with Jake Fox in rumors of a trade with KC for Mark Teehan.

I'd like Bedard, but I think the price is too high. The Cubs could offer 4/5 guys and be outbid by the likes of NYY or LAD.

LeeEila's/rant

Dec 6th 2007, 10:18 am

Gee, he was signed when he was 16.

Theriot = 6 years in the minors Plus College

I don't want to hate on Theriot. The man does the most with his ability and size, which I think everyone can support. But, the fact is that his ability is very limited.

Yes , Theriot wasted 6 years in the minors . Two of them lost on trying to make him a switch hitter . He was " evaluated " not to be able to play SS .

The poor evaluation of Theriot could have as much to do with Pie's trouble too , in being that most of his training has come from the same system since he was 16 .

Part of Pie's problem would be the influence of his buddy Soriano . He thinks he can succeed mimicking his swing .

missing23

Dec 6th 2007, 10:30 am

Theriot did not bat .300 most of the season.

Theriot had only two months (April . 299, July .348) where his BA was around or above 300 and his OBP above .340. The rest of the season he was nowhere near these marks.

I would be all for trading Pie if it would net the Cubs a major upgrade at SS. Why not throw Pie in with the Roberts talk to see if the Orioles will send back Tejada??

Apparently, Hendry has said the Cubs "can't afford" Tejada even though it seemed they were ready to piss away $15 Million on Matsui.

Cumulatively he was close to it as late as August...all I'm saying is if you don't like Theriot as a hitter Pie isn't even close to being the hitter Theriot is.

Month Line OPS
April .299/.347/.328 .676
May .256/.330/.367 .697
June .224/.272/.276 .548
July .348/.437/.483 .920
August .276/.315/.353 .668
September .202/.257/.263 .520

Bockstock

Dec 6th 2007, 11:04 am

Yes , Theriot wasted 6 years in the minors . Two of them lost on trying to make him a switch hitter . He was " evaluated " not to be able to play SS

Switch-hitter utlity man, I remember that. Hmmm I wonder who's brilliant idea that was. College players should establish themselves as regular starters by the time they are 28. IMO The cubs should not stop themselves from upgrading at SS.

The poor evaluation of Theriot could have as much to do with Pie's trouble too , in being that most of his training has come from the same system since he was 16 .

Here, Here

Bockstock

Dec 6th 2007, 11:15 am

Cumulatively he was close to it as late as August...all I'm saying is if you don't like Theriot as a hitter Pie isn't even close to being the hitter Theriot is.

If the Cubs are going to evaluate Pie they need to do it over along term period and let him play through his slumps, especially since he is a streaky hitter. I think 300 abs and we should know alot more about Pie.

If the Cubs moved Pie, it should be for a SS (Tejada/Greene/whomever), sign Fukudome, and then deal for a LH OF and platoon DeRosa/LH OF. I would rather play DeRosa at 2b, but the cubs seem deadset on this platoon/supersub idea, so it's not even worth arguing against it. If the Cubs do move Cedeno and keep theriot at SS, you have to wonder if DeRosa will also see time at SS next year , rather than going out and signing another utility-type infielder.

Honestly, Lou seems to really like both players, so I assume they'll both be given plenty of time until June. The way Lou has asserted his stamp on the team has been much more forceful than Baker, so I don't see Pie going anywhere or Theriot returning to utility man.

HEYHEY

Dec 8th 2007, 3:37 pm

Whats hilairious to me is all of the people that rip on Pie still wish that J.Jones was still on the team and was a good player.It just proves that you don't know what the hell your talking about.

BigZ38

Dec 8th 2007, 4:11 pm

Whats hilairious to me is all of the people that rip on Pie still wish that J.Jones was still on the team and was a good player.It just proves that you don't know what the hell your talking about.

Thank you.....Not to mention that apparently there is such a thing as too long in the minors especially if your signed at 17 and been in the minors for 5 year. I wish people would just lay off him and let him play.

missing23

Dec 8th 2007, 5:45 pm

Whats hilairious to me is all of the people that rip on Pie still wish that J.Jones was still on the team and was a good player.It just proves that you don't know what the hell your talking about.

Yeah, and your fact and reason filled response really convinces everybody you are the 'right' one...:rolleyes: Whatever...

mickeyrom51

Dec 12th 2007, 3:00 pm

Pie will be an outstanding DEFENSIVE center fielder.....do we really need more offense??
In a word....Yes.Two automatic outs are at least one too many.

BigZ38

Dec 12th 2007, 3:07 pm

Pie will be an outstanding DEFENSIVE center fielder.....do we really need more offense??
In a word....Yes.Two automatic outs are at least one too many.

Every team can afford to have at least one guy that's strictly defense.....I still think Pie will develop into a nice hitter but I think we have enough offensivley to allow him some leway at the plate.

HEYHEY

Dec 12th 2007, 6:04 pm

Yeah, and your fact and reason filled response really convinces everybody you are the 'right' one...:rolleyes: Whatever...

Well if you bothered to listen to what Hendry says on AM1000 and other outlets he states that Pie and Fuld will play center.

missing23

Dec 13th 2007, 12:51 pm

Well if you bothered to listen to what Hendry says on AM1000 and other outlets he states that Pie and Fuld will play center.

What are you talking about? I never debated on whether Pie would play center...because of course he will...I'm just saying he is FAR from being a major league hitter...FAR!

BigZ38

Dec 14th 2007, 3:03 pm

What are you talking about? I never debated on whether Pie would play center...because of course he will...I'm just saying he is FAR from being a major league hitter...FAR!

That's why you give him plate appearences to develop into a major league hitter. You can't expect someone to tear up the league their first year in it.

missing23

Dec 14th 2007, 6:06 pm

That's why you give him plate appearences to develop into a major league hitter. You can't expect someone to tear up the league their first year in it.

Sure but anybody that knows anything about baseball can tell he is going to struggle at the plate...he just doesn't exude the 'it' that good hitters do...I would put him in a trade package in a heartbeat while somebody still thinks he can play...which is the same thing that should have been done with Corey years ago.

SkullKey

Dec 14th 2007, 8:04 pm

missing23

Dec 14th 2007, 8:13 pm

" .... I'm just saying [Pie] is FAR from being a major league hitter...FAR! ... "

About 3 hits every 2 weeks to be exact ( 3 hits every 10 games or so). if he got 530 ABs in a season and improved by 3 hits every 2 weeks he'd be a .285 hitter. That's generally considered a good Major League hitter.

.285?! Wow, I can say a lot of you guys are dreamers...Pie didn't improve at all last year...and granted it was limited time but he didn't do ANYTHING to earn more time...in fact his late season AB's were the worst...plus he is barely hitting .220 in winter ball as they are supposedly trying to correct/enhance his swing.

Regardless of what I think he is going to get another chance, and rightfully so, but I just don't think this guy is anything better than a slap hitting .250 kind of guy who is really just there for a late inning pinch runner/defensive replacement.

BigZ38

Dec 16th 2007, 3:07 pm

Maybe if the Cubs staff didn't try and alter his swing every other week then maybe he could get comfortable with something and actually start to progress.....LET HIM PLAY!

missing23

Dec 16th 2007, 3:44 pm

Maybe if the Cubs staff didn't try and alter his swing every other week then maybe he could get comfortable with something and actually start to progress.....LET HIM PLAY!

Well, those guys are baseball experts, and they wouldn't be messing with Pie if they got the sense he could actually hit.

Sorry, but LETTING HIM PLAY isn't a complete answer because that same staff has noted pretty large holes in his swing when they were LETTING HIM PLAY.:rolleyes:

Bockstock

Dec 17th 2007, 8:36 am

missing23

Dec 17th 2007, 8:44 am

Wow there is alot of BS being thrown around in this thread. Pie is about as streaky as Soriano. There's no way you can get a sense of his total ability just by the stints he had last year. PIe has nothing more to prove at AAA. It's either play him or trade him.

LIke I said, I would be up for trading Pie if it meant getting a legitimate starting SS in return.

BS? No, just reality...regardless of what we all think Pie will get his chance...and I hope he tears it up...but from what I've seen those chances are pretty slim.

Also, and sorry, but I missed Pie's 'hot' streak...please refresh my memory? Did he get actually get two hits in one game?!:D

Bockstock

Dec 17th 2007, 9:36 am

Also, and sorry, but I missed Pie's 'hot' streak...please refresh my memory? Did he get actually get two hits in one game?!:D

Let's look at the one month Pie started in CF

June 1-14 .312/.417
June 15-30 .102/.205

June 15th he had actually brought his season line up to 268/314/433. After his cold streak he was benched and then sent back to AAA after the ASB, and never was more than a late inning sub after his call-up.

Here are some batting averages from Cubs regulars in June. If the cubs had a better offense (they had a season low OPS in June as a team), you could make the case the Cubs would have let Pie. play through his slump. But then you factor in Aram missed a bunch of time in the middle of the month and Cub regulars put up these BAs, and the cubs couldn't really afford it (despite the fact that somehow they were winning games in wacky style):

Pie .218
Koyie Hill . 186
Theriot .224
Jones .176

Obviously Pie was the odd man out in terms of minors options from that group. Luckily, Mike Fontenont got hot (probably an understatement) to compensate these crappy performances.

missing23

Dec 17th 2007, 10:00 am

Let's look at the one month Pie started in CF

June 1-14 .312/.417
June 15-30 .102/.205

June 15th he had actually brought his season line up to 268/314/433. After his cold streak he was benched and then sent back to AAA after the ASB, and never was more than a late inning sub after his call-up.

Here are some batting averages from Cubs regulars in June. If the cubs had a better offense (they had a season low OPS in June as a team), you could make the case the Cubs would have let Pie. play through his slump. But then you factor in Aram missed a bunch of time in the middle of the month and Cub regulars put up these BAs, and the cubs couldn't really afford it (despite the fact that somehow they were winning games in wacky style):

Pie .218
Koyie Hill . 186
Theriot .224
Jones .176

Obviously Pie was the odd man out in terms of minors options from that group. Luckily, Mike Fontenont got hot (probably an understatement) to compensate these crappy performances.

OK, he had a whole week or so that he actually hit.

.102 is closer to the truth...

Hill may be the only worse hitter the Cubs had than Pie.

Bockstock

Dec 17th 2007, 11:43 am

OK, he had a whole week or so that he actually hit.

.102 is closer to the truth...

Hill may be the only worse hitter the Cubs had than Pie.

Actually, Theriot was by a large margin the worst Cubs regular w/400 abs or more last year. And if you can impartially judge Pie by his crappy two weeks, I will impartially judge him by his good two weeks and 90% of his professional baseball career. Disregarding sample size is fun.

Winter leagues for example. You said Pie is barely hitting .220. He is actually around .240 and has been at that level for sometime.

In fact, take away the first week of action in the DWL when Pie was 2/19, and he puts up a line of .250/.350/.419 line for the rest of his 100+ ABs. Taken into account he may again be facing a large # of LHP, like he was last winter, it's not a bad line.

SkullKey

Dec 17th 2007, 2:17 pm

BigZ38

Dec 17th 2007, 5:14 pm

Isn't there some old thing about baseball like "Defense in the middle power on the corners"? So if we put defensive players at catcher SS and 2nd base and Offense in the corners then we'll be fine.
Our corners....Soriano, Fukudome, Lee, Ramirez....plenty of offensive and pretty good defense.
Middle.....Soto, Theriot, DeRosa, Pie/Fuld....that's some pretty good D with DeRosa and Soto having better than average offense....so that leaves 2 positions that are mainly for defense......I'm ok with that.

missing23

Dec 18th 2007, 9:22 am

Actually, Theriot was by a large margin the worst Cubs regular w/400 abs or more last year. And if you can impartially judge Pie by his crappy two weeks, I will impartially judge him by his good two weeks and 90% of his professional baseball career. Disregarding sample size is fun.

Winter leagues for example. You said Pie is barely hitting .220. He is actually around .240 and has been at that level for sometime.

In fact, take away the first week of action in the DWL when Pie was 2/19, and he puts up a line of .250/.350/.419 line for the rest of his 100+ ABs. Taken into account he may again be facing a large # of LHP, like he was last winter, it's not a bad line.

Lowly .250 hitters are a dime a dozen, so why all the hub bub about Pie?!

Plus you can't take away the 2/19 because Pie has shown in the bigs that he is that kind of non hitter.

Again, I hope the slug hits but I doubt it...we will see who is right this season...my bet he is selling souvenirs in Central America airports within a couple years.:D

missing23

Dec 18th 2007, 9:28 am

As alluded to by Bockstock SS is a much greater concern offensively than CF. There's Theriot and - Theriot (maybe Cedeno still). If he fails SS is a pit. Theriot essentially reversed what Pie did. His first 134 Major League ABs produced a .328 AVE; Theriot is not a .328 hitter although I believe many actually expect him to be. That fast start might end up being an albatross for him. (Some of the first for Theriot. I'm throwing out 2005 and it's 13 ABs when he hit .154.) Take away 4 hits and Theriot drops under .300 for 2006. Take away 8 and he's back to normal at .269. He was hot for 134 ABs.

Few seem to be considering that Pie just might improve. If all 22-year-olds stayed as they are and never improved the world would be a strange and sorry place.

I agree that SS is weak too...the thing is Pie was made out to be another Corey Patterson...errr...Willie Mays...and the slug has shown he is pretty marginal so far...if Pie had been brought up like Theriot or Fontenot with really no expectations it would have been different...but we have heard about Pie for 5-6 years now...and he still stinks.

BTW, you named the above mentioned CP in your last sentence...plus I don't know if there are stats on it but a very high percentage of 22 year olds do not improve in the bigs and wash out of baseball or end up in the minors for eternity...thinking Pie is going to improve is the MUCH longer shot.

Bockstock

Dec 20th 2007, 10:47 am

Lowly .250 hitters are a dime a dozen, so why all the hub bub about Pie?!

I would rather take my chances with the 22 year-old with a much higher ceiling than the 28-year old with limited abilities and talents (but he does get alot of mileage out of it). Pie has been able to adjust to hitting at every level. The cubs let Theriot play through a very bad slump in May/June and then he came back with his best month of the season in July. The Cubs pulled the plug on Pie quickly and never really gave him another long stint, probably because as I mentioned earlier the offensive slump much of team was in at the team and Pie was the most replaceable component with the merry-go-round of OFs the Cubs had last year.

Regarding Winter Leagues:

2. Felix Pie hasn't exactly torn up the Dominican this winter. But an easy, worth-reading offering from rotoworld.com puts Pie's mediocre season in an interesting context.

Pitchers are WAY ahead of hitters this year in the Dominican Winter League, holding batters to an OPS of about .650, which is 110 points lower than the 2007 average in the big leagues. That's worth knowing when considering Pie's .239 average, two homers and 13 RBIs in 31 games for Licey. Pie hasn't been playing lately, resting on a .694 OPS, which is a notch above average in the pitching-rich league. Pie has 10 walks and 28 strikeouts, about the same 1-3 ratio he had with the Cubs last season.

The Cubs are looking at Pie and Arizona Fall League MVP Sam Fuld to hold down center but have to feel good about the option of moving Fukudome to center and playing Mark DeRosa in right on occasion. They've signed former Detroit center fielder Andres Torres to a minor-league contract but would seem to have several better options, possibly even including Ronny Cedeno.

missing23

Dec 20th 2007, 9:54 pm

I would rather take my chances with the 22 year-old with a much higher ceiling than the 28-year old with limited abilities and talents (but he does get alot of mileage out of it). Pie has been able to adjust to hitting at every level. The cubs let Theriot play through a very bad slump in May/June and then he came back with his best month of the season in July. The Cubs pulled the plug on Pie quickly and never really gave him another long stint, probably because as I mentioned earlier the offensive slump much of team was in at the team and Pie was the most replaceable component with the merry-go-round of OFs the Cubs had last year.

Regarding Winter Leagues:

I hope the guy hits for sure but Pie strikes as much as Sammy did...and Pie has pretty much zero power...not good.

Bockstock

Dec 21st 2007, 8:37 am

I hope the guy hits for sure but Pie strikes as much as Sammy did...and Pie has pretty much zero power...not good.

No Power?? Pie has slugged over 500 in the minors since 2005. If Pie has no power, Fuld/Pagan's power would rank somewhere in Girls's teaball league. I would expect Pie to be around a 10-15 HR guy, not bad for a CF. Once he gets his BA up and can start going the other way, I would think alot of his SLG would be driven by 2b-3b because of his speed. I could see his line being close to Soriano's first year.

missing23

Dec 21st 2007, 8:50 am

No Power?? Pie has slugged over 500 in the minors since 2005. If Pie has no power, Fuld/Pagan's power would rank somewhere in Girls's teaball league. I would expect Pie to be around a 10-15 HR guy, not bad for a CF. Once he gets his BA up and can start going the other way, I would think alot of his SLG would be driven by 2b-3b because of his speed. I could see his line being close to Soriano's first year.

Yes...NO REAL POWER...I don't care where he plays because for one K in every 4 AB's 10-15 homers WON'T CUT IT with that many K's...sorry.:o

Doba

Dec 21st 2007, 8:51 am

Bockstock

Dec 21st 2007, 9:42 am

Yes...NO REAL POWER...I don't care where he plays because for one K in every 4 AB's 10-15 homers WON'T CUT IT with that many K's...sorry.:o

???

I don't know what kind of player people expect Pie to be.

That's exactly the ratios alot of sluggers put up in their first couple of years, Sosa, Bonds. Even guys more parallel to Pie's extreme ceiling. like Sizemore, Curtis Granderson. I would take those guys on my team And you can't just look at HR, you need to look at 2b and 3b with Pie's speed.

Strikeouts are overrated. Not too long ago the Cubs offense had the fewest strikeouts in the league and had a mediocre offense at best.

Bockstock

Dec 21st 2007, 9:57 am

Quoted for the truth.

That shouldn't stop the Cubs from trying to improve.

Even with the Tribune/Cubs sale in limbo, Hendry has already handed out two big contracts within the last four months. I'm startting to think that the idea of the Hendry having his hands-tied this off-season was just somebody blowing smoke.

weeghman

Dec 21st 2007, 9:58 am

???

I don't know what kind of player people expect Pie to be.

That's exactly the ratios alot of sluggers put up in their first couple of years, Sosa, Bonds. Even guys more parallel to Pie's extreme ceiling. like Sizemore, Curtis Granderson. I would take those guys on my team And you can't just look at HR, you need to look at 2b and 3b with Pie's speed.

Strikeouts are overrated. Not too long ago the Cubs offense had the fewest strikeouts in the league and had a mediocre offense at best.

Let me preface this by saying I am completely on your side of this discussion Bockstock. However, I don't think K's are an overrated stat. They become overrated when the player's overall output is better then how he is getting out. If a player is hitting over .280 with good OPS and shows good situational hitting awareness then K's are overrated. But when a player strikes out a ton but isn't showing that he is improving or improving any plate discipline, it is then a problem.

I don't personally think that is the case with Pie. I think he is a young player that is figuring things out. I really do believe that when it starts clicking for him is going to be ridiculously good.

I sure am glad people didn't give up on me when I was 22!!:D;):D

Doba

Dec 21st 2007, 10:14 am

That shouldn't stop the Cubs from trying to improve.

Even with the Tribune/Cubs sale in limbo, Hendry has already handed out two big contracts within the last four months. I'm startting to think that the idea of the Hendry having his hands-tied this off-season was just somebody blowing smoke.

I think we have a very solid team put together right now. Asking for more is just greedy if you ask me. We can't have an all-star at every position. Theriot and Pie seem to be the guys everyone wants to rag on. Sure they have their weak points, but they are both good defensively. They have both proven they can hit the ball, it is just a matter of consistancy.