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View Full Version : Theriot Vs. Soriano. Who should lead off?


TheBenjamin
Mar 12th 2008, 6:16 pm
http://viewfromthebleachers.com/blog/2008/02/24/soriano-is-the-best-leadoff-hitter/


I wanted to take a look as we head into spring training games what the best option should be for the batting order. Lou has already expressed to us that Alfonso Soriano will be the leadoff man. Many, when they heard that statement groaned a collective groan and yearned for better times when Lou would understand that Soriano should not being in the leadoff position. Perhaps we should look at the numbers and see if those wishes are, in fact, justified. Is Soriano a bad choice for the leadoff spot? Is Ryan Theriot better suited for the role. After all, remember how good he did when he was given the chance last year? Let’s take a look at what we received from the two of them last year. Keep in mind that the following numbers are the result of 577 plate appearances by Soriano and 161 plate appearances by Theriot. They’re not even sample sizes, but anything more than 150 plate appearances, in my opinion, is a good enough sample size to get a good reading on what can be done by a player. Here are the results of each player when placed in the top spot in the order last year.

Player Name AVG
OBP SLG W/L
A. Soriano
.308 .345 .579 69-56
R. Theriot
.300 .342 .420 15-19

As you can see, both players performed particularly well, but had room for improvement. Don’t be fooled by above average batting average and think that they did a great job in that spot. Consider instead the slightly above league average OBP put up by each of them. .334 was the NL average last year for that stat and both were just slightly above that. It’s a stat that’s vital to the leadoff role and our guys had room to improve on it. What got me intrigued was when we delve a little deeper into the numbers. For example, take a look at the team record when each player is in the lineup in the leadoff spot. For Soriano, the team put an above .500 record on the board with him in the leadoff spot, while playing below .500 when Theriot was in that spot. “But when Theriot was in the leadoff spot, Soriano was injured, so his bat was missing in the offense.” That isn’t exactly true. Of the 34 games Theriot was in the leadoff spot, nine of them (26%) of them included Soriano in the lineup.

Maybe we should dive into the alternatives to examine if we really should make a move for change. Let’s take a look at not only how each player performed in non-leadoff positions last year, but also in their career. Let’s start with Soriano in the third spot last year, which consisted of 31 plate appearances. In that limited time, Soriano put up the following numbers:

.179 / .258 / .286 with a team record of 3-4. 31 plate appearances doesn’t seem like a good sample size, so perhaps we should look at his career numbers in various positions to see how they stack up.

Order Position AVG
OBP SLG Plate App.
Leadoff Spot
.295 .341 .551 2804
Third Spot
.260 .310 .452 687
Fifth Spot
.268 .312 .513 626

That’s a pretty severe drop off when Soriano is moved out of that top spot. The third spot even puts him in the league average OPS numbers. Yuck. That’s certainly not worth the money spent to bring him in. He has always maintained that the leadoff spot is where he feels most comfortable and a good part of the reason is because as the leadoff man, he sees a good deal more fastballs. He may not admit it, but he’s a slugger trapped in a speedy guy body. Sluggers like fastballs and the leadoff spot sees fastballs.

Theriot’s career numbers look like this in the first and second spots.

Order Position AVG
OBP SLG Plate App.
Leadoff Spot
.289 .329 .409 170
Second Spot
.284 .353 .386 445

There is not nearly as significant a drop off in Theriot’s numbers overall, and one could even argue that his numbers are roughly the same or even better. He gets on base at a more consistent clip and loses just a bit off his slugging.

Let’s assume that Brian Roberts stays in Baltimore and we go into the season with Soriano and Theriot vying for the top spot. After looking at the numbers, are you sure you don’t want Soriano in that top spot? I’m beginning to rethink my position on it.

cubbyfanforever
Mar 12th 2008, 6:39 pm
SoRi should leadoff, but if we just get Crisp,then Crisp,if we get Crisp and BRob,then Brob.

TheBenjamin
Mar 12th 2008, 7:37 pm
boy oh boy..... either way its not gonna be pretty

BigZ38
Mar 12th 2008, 7:39 pm
SoRi should leadoff, but if we just get Crisp,then Crisp,if we get Crisp and BRob,then Brob.

NO CRISP! Soriano easily, Theriot just can't hit righties consistently.

TheBenjamin
Mar 12th 2008, 7:41 pm
exactly. while I dont like seeing him in leadoff, we have no other option

Bockstock
Mar 12th 2008, 10:06 pm
Soriano, followed by DeRosa then Fukudome

Speed and base-clogging are overrated, dude

TheBenjamin
Mar 13th 2008, 3:52 am
seems like everyone who read this thread agrees with Soriano leading off

NeifiPerezMVP2007
Mar 13th 2008, 4:41 am
I just don't see Theriot getting on base any better than Soriano. Theriot still needs to prove hes a legitimate offensive threat, because he was way too streaky last season. I like Theriot as long as he keeps improving.

NeifiPerezMVP2007
Mar 13th 2008, 4:42 am
seems like everyone who read this thread agrees with Soriano leading off

I'd say thats correct! I think batting Soriano second is dumb, you might as well bat him 5th, at least hes have way more RBI chances.

TheBenjamin
Mar 13th 2008, 4:48 am
until we get a real leadoff hitter, and o Theriot is not one, Soriano is our best and only option

LeeEila's/rant
Mar 13th 2008, 8:12 am
Soriano is the worst lead off hitter . Now call me a hater . As for his numbers at lead off , plug any 4,5,6, hitter in that spot and you will see the same numbers . If you want to use that arguement plug A-Ram in 1st.
Especially with the bad wheel on Soriono.

roenick99
Mar 13th 2008, 8:29 am
seems like everyone who read this thread agrees with Soriano leading off

Or not.

TheBenjamin
Mar 13th 2008, 8:57 am
well, at that moment they did. And as it stands. sadly he is our best and only option

Bockstock
Mar 13th 2008, 10:42 am
IF you use PETCO projections 2008 and do a lineup like this and use simple calculations based on average PA for DeRosa/Sori/Riot last season

DeRosa 286/360/439
Fukudome 289/401/504
Lee 303/387/527
Soriano 278/336/544
Aram 301/363/536
Soto 273/352/470
Pie 291/344/479
Theriot 270/330/347

The DeRosa/Fukudome 1/2 will reach base 60 more times and generate 20-30 more total bases on SLG alone than the Sori/Riot 1/2, even including Sori's HR power. Not only that, but you have Soriano in a spot (#4/#5) where he still will lead-off quite a few innings and you have speed in front of the pitcher for all you 'small-ball' fans out there.

Not that Lou would do a lineup like this, but it's interesting to think about. Of course one could argue about the optimism on Fukudome's part, but Sori's line looks pretty realistic, at least the OBP/SLG part of it.

LeeEila's/rant
Mar 13th 2008, 11:34 am
Bockstock I like your ides of DeRosa and Fukudome hitting back to back .

What about this lineup ?

1. TheRiot

2. Soriano

3. Lee

4. A-Ram

5. Fukudome

6. DeRosa

7. Soto

8. Pitcher

9. Pie

This would put some speed mixed in and make it hard to pitch around anyone and put speed in on every inning.

Bockstock
Mar 13th 2008, 12:15 pm
I feel DeRosa or Fukudome need to be in the top two spots.

Optimistically, it would be best for both of them to be there. The 1/2 will obviously see the most at-bats over the course of the season, so putting guys there that will get on base at a good clip will give 3/4/5 the most RBI opportunities., hence why I don't like Theriot at the top.

If Theriot continues to show improvement against RHP like he has in ST I wouldn't be against him as #1 unless he is consistently below the .340 OBP mark. I think we can all agree Soriano is a bad fit for the #2 slot.

Bottom line I guess is that I hate sacrificing OBP at the top of the order for speed. I thought there would be change in philosophy with Dusty out and Lou in, but Lou seems to stick to that same idea that had Dusty puting Patterson and Pierre at the top of the order.

Just once I'd like to see how many RBI's Lee and Aram can accumulate batting behind a .350+ OBP

TheBenjamin
Mar 13th 2008, 1:29 pm
I think that taking Soriano out of the leadoff spot is an indication that we are getting close to getting some leadoff hitter from someplace.

I jsut dont think Theriot can hit leadoff

cubbyfanforever
Mar 13th 2008, 1:47 pm
I think that taking Soriano out of the leadoff spot is an indication that we are getting close to getting some leadoff hitter from someplace.

I jsut dont think Theriot can hit leadoff

That is a good point,I didn't think about that,makes sense,BRob is coming to Chicago,Lou is trying to see where SoRi fits,knowing for sure that he will not bat 1st. but batting him 2nd or I like him 5th............................................... .................................................. .................................................. .................................................. .................................................. .................................................. ...........http://geocities.com/weese66/BRobMcphail.jpg

TheBenjamin
Mar 13th 2008, 1:50 pm
if we have a base stealer at leadoff, the number two hitter wll see alot of fastballs. That is something that Soriano loves. He is a fast ball hitter. So IF we get a real leadoff hitter who can steal bases (notice im not saying specifics) Soriano might be a good fit at the number two slot

Bockstock
Mar 13th 2008, 2:36 pm
if we have a base stealer at leadoff, the number two hitter wll see alot of fastballs. That is something that Soriano loves. He is a fast ball hitter. So IF we get a real leadoff hitter who can steal bases (notice im not saying specifics) Soriano might be a good fit at the number two slot


Soriano is better at #1 or #4/#5

Like you've said, the only reason Soriano hit #1 is the idea that he feels more comfortable and has a recent history of optimal production there. If you are going to move him because of his power, #2 is perhaps the worst spot to put him 1-5.

HEYHEY
Mar 13th 2008, 2:54 pm
You know this is a good problem to have. I as you all know want The Riot at L/O. Why....the numbers don't tell the whole story. Its like the NFL combine. Theres no test or numbers for heart and hustle,which is exactly what The Riot brings to the table.

Do you soon forget how The Riot sent the team on a winning streak when he played L/O ? I don't understand the people on this board. All the kid does is hustle and produce. Yeah he falterd at the end but the whole team did. It was his first full year in the majors and he and Fontenot had some learning and adjustiong to do which is normal. This year they know the riggers of the marathon NL schedule and season.

I'll put my money on the Rajun Cajuns

TheBenjamin
Mar 13th 2008, 2:57 pm
15-19 when Theriot is leading off. He may have heart, and I love that about him, but heart doesnt take the place of talent. You like Fontenot, but I have one question. Where does he play? He has no position other then the bench right now.

HEYHEY
Mar 13th 2008, 3:03 pm
And that is fine. He gets to spell Dero just like last year.

TheBenjamin
Mar 13th 2008, 3:04 pm
ok, jsut making sure you dont think he should start over DeRo

HEYHEY
Mar 13th 2008, 3:04 pm
15-19 when Theriot is leading off. He may have heart, and I love that about him, but heart doesnt take the place of talent. You like Fontenot, but I have one question. Where does he play? He has no position other then the bench right now.

Weather YOU like it or not it does not matter. Thats the way it is right now. Lou knows...You don't

TheBenjamin
Mar 13th 2008, 3:06 pm
All I am saying is that I dont think its a great idea. Im not alone in this thought that Theriot shouldnt be leading off. I hope it works.

HEYHEY
Mar 13th 2008, 3:10 pm
Again Lou knows, all others don't matter

TheBenjamin
Mar 13th 2008, 3:14 pm
I hope you and Lou are right. But dont forget, Lou has made mistakes as well.

Bockstock
Mar 13th 2008, 3:47 pm
Weather YOU like it or not it does not matter. Thats the way it is right now. Lou knows...You don't

More OBP at #1/#2 = More RBI's and more PA from Lee/Aram/#5

That's what everybody wants, right??

That's all the matters

Runs scored by an offense has the highest correlation with OBP, not 'Speed' or slugging. People wonder why the Cubs offense has struggled to break into the top half of the NL the past four years. Just look at the players that have been at the top of the order, they are epitomized by speed and high contact-rate/low OBP. For cripes sake, Lee's RBI total in 2005 was PATHETIC considering the number of doubels and HR he had, and it was due to who Dusty was putting at the top of the order. Now Lou is not that bad, but he still places way too much emphasis on speed.

And while Ryan Theriot certainly has his value giving his sub 700 OPS the most PA on the team is a terrible idea, considering he is probably the weakest Offensive player out of the starting 9.

TheBenjamin
Mar 13th 2008, 3:52 pm
the Cubs best OBP guys on the team, are Lee and DeRosa I believe. I know Lee is number 1, but no way in hell does he lead off

Bockstock
Mar 13th 2008, 3:57 pm
Again Lou knows, all others don't matter

You're right

And we're expecting alot more than 85 wins out of an $120 Million team this year.

Bockstock
Mar 13th 2008, 4:00 pm
the Cubs best OBP guys on the team, are Lee and DeRosa I believe. I know Lee is number 1, but no way in hell does he lead off

Well, obviously, but this team has a lack of mid-range power hitters right now.

Nobody is a sure bet to hit 20 outside the big 3.

NeifiPerezMVP2007
Mar 13th 2008, 7:34 pm
My problem with Soriano batting 2nd is the fact Sori isn't a hitter that advances runners, bunts, or plays hit and run very well. These are the things Theriot is better at. In the 2 spot, its not at all about speed (Lou's reason for Soriano hitting 2nd was he won't need to steal much), its about "small ball", reaching 1st base safely and moving runners up. Soriano is more of a lead-off hitter than Theriot is. Fukudome seems like the obvious choice to hit 2nd because hes a high OBP player, and it seems like through his carrier he plays all sides of baseball very well.

ryno4ever
Mar 13th 2008, 9:54 pm
seems like everyone who read this thread agrees with Soriano leading off

Sorry, but I don't. I didn't last year, and I still don't this year....until we know 100% for sure he is not going to nurse his quad.... or that we know he doesn't need to nurse that quad. I'm all for Lou to experiment with the lineup right now. It's Spring Training, where it is the BEST time to try to mix things up. Do I think Theriot is the answer? Maybe, maybe not. DeRosa? Perhaps. For years the Cubs have been looking for that leadoff hitter, and I still don't think we have found what they are looking for. Pierre was close, but he wasn't the right fit in Chicago. With Soriano's leg problems, yet still has his power in the bat, I really believe Soriano needs to be down in the lineup (4 or 5).

TheBenjamin
Mar 14th 2008, 3:53 am
well, I meant over Theriot, and over everyone else we currently have on the team. As sad as it may be, he is our best option imo.

And for the record, when that post was made, everyone voted Soriano :D

Bockstock
Mar 14th 2008, 8:52 am
Soriano's contract keeps looking better and better

cubbyfanforever
Mar 14th 2008, 9:12 am
well, I meant over Theriot, and over everyone else we currently have on the team. As sad as it may be, he is our best option imo.

And for the record, when that post was made, everyone voted Soriano :D

Not for long,BRob comin' to town.I like Brob batting 1st.,Fuku 2nd. and Sori 5th.

Wrigleys Peanut Vendor
Mar 14th 2008, 9:42 am
I made this point in another thread and I will make it here. Even if Alfonsos numbers drop off at the five spot, the slugging he gives you there is still better than the OBP he gives you up top, especially with Derosa able to hit about .370 on top

TheBenjamin
Mar 14th 2008, 10:50 am
DeRosa (if we get Roberts) will be a bench player with Cintron