Wuertz traded to A's

[Bockstock]

for next to nothing

Lou's dog-house is empty

I love how the Cubs traded these guys even before ST and any potential injuries.

[ICcubfan]

CHICAGO -- The Cubs on Monday dealt right-handed pitcher Michael Wuertz to the Oakland Athletics for Minor League outfielder Richie Robnett and infielder Justin Sellers.

Robnett, 25, was selected by the Athletics in the first round of the 2004 First-Year Player Draft. A left-handed hitter, he was limited to 82 games last season after early season surgery to remove a tumor from his stomach. He batted .236 at Triple-A, and has a .256 average in five Minor League seasons.

He was added to the Cubs' 40-man roster and will report to Spring Training camp.

Sellers, who turned 23 on Sunday, was selected by Oakland in the sixth round of the 2005 Draft. He spent an entire season at Double-A Midland for the first time in 2008, batting .255 with 15 doubles, eight triples, six home runs, 46 RBIs and 10 stolen bases in 123 games. He will report to the Cubs' Minor League camp this spring.

A middle infielder, Sellers played 63 games at shortstop and 60 games at second base in 2008.

The Cubs have been adding arms this offseason and decided to part with Wuertz, 30, who went 13-7 with one save and a 3.57 ERA in 265 relief appearances in all or part of five seasons with the Cubs.

He split the 2008 season between the Cubs and Triple-A Iowa, going 1-1 with a 3.63 ERA in 45 relief appearances for the Cubs.

[TheBenjamin]

wow. didnt see this coming

[ICcubfan]

Makes you wonder wtf Jim is up to? I hope he is up to something big!

[TheBenjamin]

doubt he is up to anything but clearing room

[Bockstock]

Makes you wonder wtf Jim is up to? I hope he is up to something big!

What would make you say that??

the Cubs haven't gotten anything worth of value back from these trades except Heilman. At the time I didn't disagree with trading DeRosa if it meant bumping payroll to add Peavy or another SP. But now it looks stupid.

[Bims]

If anyone is looking to get excited about this trade, I advise you not to look up the players the Cubs got in return numbers. ..... Now Big Jim thinks it's wise to deal from an area that's already a weakness. Another head scratcher.

[ryno4ever]

We have a very very very questionable bullpen now...after FINALLY for the last couple of years having a solid pen! Ugh.......

[cubs161]

if Big Jim is saving up for someone who does he have to trade for that Mystical person? hes traded Ceda, Hill, Weaurtz, and didnt offer Wood arbitration, Pie is gone whos left

[TheBenjamin]

Guzman?

[ryno4ever]

Vitters....

I don't think Hendry is done. He has just cleared two roster spots on the 40 man roster... I don't think it's going to be a big splash, but it wouldn't surprise me if he doesn't have one of these free agents who are still looking for a home and willing to give a discount to play in mind...

[TheBenjamin]

actually, one of the guys we got for Wuertz was placed on the 40 man

the 40 man currently has
21 Pitchers

58 Jose Ascanio
60 Mitch Atkins
64 Justin Berg
48 Neal Cotts
46 Ryan Dempster
57 Chad Gaudin
63 Kevin Gregg
37 Angel Guzman
40 Rich Harden
22 Kevin Hart
-- Aaron Heilman
30 Ted Lilly
49 Carlos Marmol
45 Sean Marshall
62 Marcos Mateo
54 David Patton
29 Jeff Samardzija
52 Jeff Stevens
51 Luis Vizcaino
36 Randy Wells
38 Carlos Zambrano


3 catchers

-- Paul Bako
55 Koyie Hill
18 Geovany Soto

6 Infielders

17 Mike Fontenot
6 Micah Hoffpauir
25 Derrek Lee
7 Aaron Miles
16 Aramis Ramirez
2 Ryan Theriot

9 Outfielders

21 Milton Bradley
13 Jake Fox
1 Kosuke Fukudome
27 Sam Fuld
4 Joey Gathright
9 Reed Johnson
-- Richie Robnett
56 Brad Snyder
12 Alfonso Soriano


they have one slot open

i find it odd that Vitters isnt on the 40 man....... but this is who is according to Cubs.com

[TheBenjamin]

here are the non-roster invites (again no Vitters)

Pitchers

78 Edward Campusano
71 Esmailin Caridad
70 Andrew Cashner
44 Chad Fox
88 Ken Kadokura
68 J.R. Mathes
67 Rocky Roquet
61 Matt Smith
32 Mike Stanton
76 Jason Waddell
75 Bill White

Catchers

72 Welington Castillo
74 Steve Clevenger
15 Mark Johnson

Infielders

65 Darwin Barney
59 Andres Blanco
20 Luis Rivas
73 Bobby Scales

Outfielders

66 Doug Deeds
33 Jason Dubois
99 So Taguchi

[Bockstock]

actually, one of the guys we got for Wuertz was placed on the 40 man

i find it odd that Vitters isnt on the 40 man....... but this is who is according to Cubs.com

The Cubs still have 3-4 years until they have to roster Vitters depending on when his b-day is.

[Bims]

Anyone else see Lou going to the mound alot next season? That bullpen is going to cause us fits!

[Bockstock]

I have no problem trading Wuertz if it helped the big league team. At least Pie/Cedeno trade landed Heilman.

this is a move just to fill up minor league roster space and takes away from the big league club.

[LeeEila's/rant]

Trading DeRosa was our only option , that would allow us to get more left handed . I am not all that surprised. He is stocking inventory for mid season adjustments. We have a ton of questions to be answered yet.
We are stocked enough to win the division. I really don't see any holes in our 40 man roster. Play it up to the trade deadline then evaluate what we need to put us in the playoffs . then make our adjustments.
We have to wait and see how everything shakes out in spring training. Pitching , fielding , batting all need to be proven to be what Lou is wanting.

[TheBenjamin]

problem is none of the minor leaguers that we have gotten outside of Stephens is worth anything. We are just clearing out space with guys we cant use and have no intention of using. Outside of DeRosa we traded Hill, Cededno, Pie, Wuertz all guys who were out of options and not likely to make the team out of spring training. We got next to nothing for them, and likely wont get anything for them in any mid season trade

[LeeEila's/rant]

problem is none of the minor leaguers that we have gotten outside of Stephens is worth anything. We are just clearing out space with guys we cant use and have no intention of using. Outside of DeRosa we traded Hill, Cededno, Pie, Wuertz all guys who were out of options and not likely to make the team out of spring training. We got next to nothing for them, and likely wont get anything for them in any mid season trade

Didn't we get Bradley , Miles , a ton of prospects and freed up playing room for Johnson and Fontenot ? I think the combination of all of these together will help us more than what we traded. I am not upset with what we did. It looked like the only logical moves.
There will be tons of one year FA's available in July , we will be able to hand pick a guy exclusively for post season help. ( thanks to the non-existent financial withdrawal in baseball :rolleyes: )

[Bims]

I really don't see any holes in our 40 man roster.
You don't see a very shaky bullpen? You don't see a middle infield with slap hitters?

[Bims]

Didn't we get Bradley , Miles , a ton of prospects and freed up playing room for Johnson and Fontenot ? I think the combination of all of these together will help us more than what we traded. I am not upset with what we did. It looked like the only logical moves.
There will be tons of one year FA's available in July , we will be able to hand pick a guy exclusively for post season help. ( thanks to the non-existent financial withdrawal in baseball :rolleyes: ) His point is, we traded away alot of major league talent, and got crap prospects in return that aren't going to help us down the road. None of the prospects we got, will help us land anyone worth having. So the reasons for making the trades, don't make a ton of sense, and didn't make us a better team. ..... What FA's will be available in July?

[LeeEila's/rant]

His point is, we traded away alot of major league talent, and got crap prospects in return that aren't going to help us down the road. None of the prospects we got, will help us land anyone worth having. So the reasons for making the trades, don't make a ton of sense, and didn't make us a better team. ..... What FA's will be available in July?

I doubt if all eighty-six current availiable free-agents will sign by July. Most will sit and hope thier value is more at the trade deadline.

Like I said playing Fontenot more , Bradley , Johnson , Miles will give us more offence than Pie , Cedano , DeRosa . Trading Hill , Wood , how long do you want to keep saying " if they can do it " each year ?

What would you have done ?

[Bims]

I doubt if all eighty-six current availiable free-agents will sign by July. Most will sit and hope thier value is more at the trade deadline.

Like I said playing Fontenot more , Bradley , Johnson , Miles will give us more offence than Pie , Cedano , DeRosa . Trading Hill , Wood , how long do you want to keep saying " if they can do it " each year ?

What would you have done ? Any free agent worth signing will be gone. No good free agent will wait until the dead line. They will simply sign 1 year deals, and up their value for next season. ..... The point is, Big Jim traded Pie, Ceda, Cedeno, Hill, DeRosa, Wuertz, Marquis away this off-season, and got no impact prospects in return, and mediocre big league relievers like Luis Vizcaino, Kevin Gregg, and Aaron Heilman. That's not good! He also lost Donald Veal through the Rule 5 Draft, lost a draft pick when he signed Bradley, and failed to get a draft pick by not offering Wood arbitration. ..... I don't know more about baseball then Jim Hendry. But I think he fell in love with making moves this off-season. I would have simply made alot less moves. We were a good team last season last I checked. Dunn would have been cheaper then Bradley, and not cost a draft pick. Letting Dempster go would have saved a ton of money, and allowed us to keep DeRosa. He could have traded for, or signed a better, cheaper option. Big Jim simply overreacted to the last few post seasons.

[Bockstock]

Didn't we get Bradley , Miles , a ton of prospects and freed up playing room for Johnson and Fontenot ?

Lee I agree with you about Fontenot and Bradley but

a) Johnson isn't very good against RHP. I don't see what getting him more playing time would get.
b) the 'prospects' the cubs got are mainly relief pitchers not playing above A. aka not worth jack, neither are these guys from Oakland. They weren't even in Oaklands' top 40 last year.
c) Don't Stevens, Robnett along with Brad Snyder and Guzman have to make the 25-man out of ST or else be put on waivers??

I think in the end Pie+Cedeno+K.Hill+DeRosa is going to be about the same cost wise as Gathright+Miles+Bako+backup IF, especially after the cubs dumped Wuertz's $1.1 million. Which group of players would you rather have??

[Jimmy Nordon]

His point is, we traded away alot of major league talent, and got crap prospects in return that aren't going to help us down the road. None of the prospects we got, will help us land anyone worth having. So the reasons for making the trades, don't make a ton of sense, and didn't make us a better team. ..... What FA's will be available in July?

How do you know?

[Jason]

Don't be so negative guys... something might come of this.

[ryno4ever]

they were talking today on ESPN 1000 that many of the big named free agents who are still out there available have mentioned that they may stay out of the game until June/July when there will be more of a demand and a better market for them. AND if they wait until then, the teams picking them up then will not lose a draft pick, as the draft will have already happened. So, there may be quite a few of these free agents available into mid season.

[Bockstock]

How do you know?

because they're relief pitchers

I don't mind selling low, but kicking these guys out of town even before ST seems like a dumb strategy.

[LeeEila's/rant]

Lee I agree with you about Fontenot and Bradley but

a) Johnson isn't very good against RHP. I don't see what getting him more playing time would get.

This year will be year #2 off back surgery . I expect even more from him this year .



b) the 'prospects' the cubs got are mainly relief pitchers not playing above A. aka not worth jack, neither are these guys from Oakland. They weren't even in Oaklands' top 40 last year.


They are not worth much now but , by the trade deadline , they may be more attractive to teams that are out of it. Big Jim is gambling here , it may pay off it may not .


c) Don't Stevens, Robnett along with Brad Snyder and Guzman have to make the 25-man out of ST or else be put on waivers??

I think in the end Pie+Cedeno+K.Hill+DeRosa is going to be about the same cost wise as Gathright+Miles+Bako+backup IF, especially after the cubs dumped Wuertz's $1.1 million. Which group of players would you rather have??

Outside of DeRosa ( he had to go , he was the only dealable guy we had to get us left handed hitters )we replaced the others with proven guys. Pie for Gathright any day in my opinion . Miles for Cedeno , switch hitting utility guy . upgrade for me . The only reason K.Hill looked good to us was because we saw him play behind Barrett , ugg ! I doubt if Blanco could stay healthy all year . Was Wuertz anything more than serviceable ?

[LeeEila's/rant]

Any free agent worth signing will be gone. No good free agent will wait until the dead line. They will simply sign 1 year deals, and up their value for next season. ..... The point is, Big Jim traded Pie, Ceda, Cedeno, Hill, DeRosa, Wuertz, Marquis away this off-season, and got no impact prospects in return, and mediocre big league relievers like Luis Vizcaino, Kevin Gregg, and Aaron Heilman. That's not good! He also lost Donald Veal through the Rule 5 Draft, lost a draft pick when he signed Bradley, and failed to get a draft pick by not offering Wood arbitration. ..... I don't know more about baseball then Jim Hendry. But I think he fell in love with making moves this off-season. I would have simply made alot less moves. We were a good team last season last I checked. Dunn would have been cheaper then Bradley, and not cost a draft pick. Letting Dempster go would have saved a ton of money, and allowed us to keep DeRosa. He could have traded for, or signed a better, cheaper option. Big Jim simply overreacted to the last few post seasons.


The idea that you could get any impact players for triple A Pie , One Tool Cedeno , Hill with " the thing ' , Too Much Money Marquis , Wuertz maybe maybe not make the pitch , Never proven Ceda , One year-rent-a-player DeRosa , is insane !! This is not like kids trading cards to where you can fleece some simple - minded kid , this is the real world.

Actually the relief pitchers he git were not that bad of a deal , considering the market. I know that you are convinced the baseball market is booming and all of the free agents will be signed to big deals in the next two weeks.

They offered Wood a one year deal he said no. The idea of giving him anything more to sit with another injury would be stupid. you have to know when to say enough.

You would have let go of a seventeen game winning pitcher and kept a one year contracted utility player . You would rather have Dunn over Bradley ???
That is just plain crazy talk.

Your whole post was contradictory ramblings , You started off saying that Jim never signed big impact players , then ended it saying he could have signed cheaper options and he was over reacting.

[TheBenjamin]

they were talking today on ESPN 1000 that many of the big named free agents who are still out there available have mentioned that they may stay out of the game until June/July when there will be more of a demand and a better market for them. AND if they wait until then, the teams picking them up then will not lose a draft pick, as the draft will have already happened. So, there may be quite a few of these free agents available into mid season.

how about this.... Soriano goes down in mid to late june or july.... Cubs sign Dunn for Left :D

[Bims]

The idea that you could get any impact players for triple A Pie , One Tool Cedeno , Hill with " the thing ' , Too Much Money Marquis , Wuertz maybe maybe not make the pitch , Never proven Ceda , One year-rent-a-player DeRosa , is insane !! This is not like kids trading cards to where you can fleece some simple - minded kid , this is the real world.

Actually the relief pitchers he git were not that bad of a deal , considering the market. I know that you are convinced the baseball market is booming and all of the free agents will be signed to big deals in the next two weeks.

They offered Wood a one year deal he said no. The idea of giving him anything more to sit with another injury would be stupid. you have to know when to say enough.

You would have let go of a seventeen game winning pitcher and kept a one year contracted utility player . You would rather have Dunn over Bradley ???
That is just plain crazy talk.

Your whole post was contradictory ramblings , You started off saying that Jim never signed big impact players , then ended it saying he could have signed cheaper options and he was over reacting. First off, how is that final paragraph a contradiction? Do you understand what a contradiction is? I beg you to point out my statements that fall under that category. And I never said that big Jim never signed big impact players, I said he never got impact prospects in return for all the players he traded away. Please, read everything and quote it correctly. ..... Kerry was never offered a 1 year contract. Thus the Cubs never got a draft pick for him. Why do you make things up? There's no disputing that fact. ..... Yes, I would have signed Dunn over Bradley in a heart beat. How exactly is that "crazy talk"? Dunn is 2 years younger then Bradley. Dunn has 175 more career home runs then Bradley. Dunn has 273 more career RBI's then Bradley. Dunn has 408 more career walks then Bradley. Dunn has 259 more career runs then Bradley. Dunn has hit atleast 40 home runs, and had over 100 walks, in 5 straight seasons. Look up stats, and do a little research.

[LeeEila's/rant]

. ..... Kerry was never offered a 1 year contract. Thus the Cubs never got a draft pick for him. Why do you make things up? There's no disputing that fact. ......

:rolleyes:What are you a child ? You have to be an adolescent , I would guess fifteen maybe. If someone says something you are not aware of , they have making it up. LMAO !!

[Bims]

:rolleyes:What are you a child ? You have to be an adolescent , I would guess fifteen maybe. If someone says something you are not aware of , they have making it up. LMAO !! I'm not exactly sure what you're disputing. Kerry was a type A free agent, who was arbitration eligible. All the Cubs had to do was simply offer him a contract, he didn't even have to except it, and the Cubs would have gotten a draft pick. It's fact that the Cubs didn't offer Kerry a contract, hence no draft pick. ..... Thanks for very convienently not addressing your contradiction theories.

[LeeEila's/rant]

Jim Hendry addressed this in an interview , he said they offered him a one year deal and Kerry and his agent thought he could get a three year deal. So he pulled the offer and allowed Wood to avoid arbitration to get a three year deal. They are buddies , Hendry was helping Wood.

[Bims]

Jim Hendry addressed this in an interview , he said they offered him a one year deal and Kerry and his agent thought he could get a three year deal. So he pulled the offer and allowed Wood to avoid arbitration to get a three year deal. They are buddies , Hendry was helping Wood. How does Jim not offering Kerry arbitration, help Kerry? All Kerry would've had to do, is turn it down, then get his mulit year deal from the Indians. Why wouldn't Jim just leave the one year offer on the table, so he could get a 1st round draft pick? You are slowly becoming the National Enquirer of fogpog. ..... Once again, can you please explain your contradiction theories.

[LeeEila's/rant]

You don't see a very shaky bullpen? You don't see a middle infield with slap hitters?

You are right , we will greatly miss Howry and Wuertz :rolleyes:

[Bims]

You are right , we will greatly miss Howry and Wuertz :rolleyes:
Did you forget about Kerry Wood? The fact that with Kerry gone, Marmol is the closer, so we lose his abilities in the 7th and 8th inning. Howry wasn't great last season, but he never got hurt, and pitched a ton of games. Wuertz was very solid over his Cubs career. Who's the shutdown lefty out of the pen? Who's gonne be the guy to come in with runners on 1st and 2nd and nobody out, in the 7th inning? If a bullpen that consists of Gregg, Vizcaino, Cotts, and Heilman gets you pumped, god bless!

[LeeEila's/rant]

How does Jim not offering Kerry arbitration, help Kerry? All Kerry would've had to do, is turn it down, then get his mulit year deal from the Indians. Why wouldn't Jim just leave the one year offer on the table, so he could get a 1st round draft pick? You are slowly becoming the National Enquirer of fogpog. ..... Once again, can you please explain your contradiction theories.

You have no understanding of how business works. If he made the offer public that would be the starting price set for Wood's negotiations. By having no starting point Wood could ask for more from the Indians.

What is this " contradiction theories " talk ? Is this your new " accountable " mantra ?

[Bims]

You have no understanding of how business works. If he made the offer public that would be the starting price set for Wood's negotiations. By having no starting point Wood could ask for more from the Indians.

What is this " contradiction theories " talk ? Is this your new " accountable " mantra ? You are never going to understand the basic theme here, so lets just cut our loses and forget this conversation ever took place. I feel like I just went to the Doctor because I had a sore throat, and his remedy for curing it was having my left leg amputated.

[Jimmy Nordon]

Any free agent worth signing will be gone. No good free agent will wait until the dead line. They will simply sign 1 year deals, and up their value for next season. ..... The point is, Big Jim traded Pie, Ceda, Cedeno, Hill, DeRosa, Wuertz, Marquis away this off-season, and got no impact prospects in return, and mediocre big league relievers like Luis Vizcaino, Kevin Gregg, and Aaron Heilman. That's not good! He also lost Donald Veal through the Rule 5 Draft, lost a draft pick when he signed Bradley, and failed to get a draft pick by not offering Wood arbitration. ..... I don't know more about baseball then Jim Hendry. But I think he fell in love with making moves this off-season. I would have simply made alot less moves. We were a good team last season last I checked. Dunn would have been cheaper then Bradley, and not cost a draft pick. Letting Dempster go would have saved a ton of money, and allowed us to keep DeRosa. He could have traded for, or signed a better, cheaper option. Big Jim simply overreacted to the last few post seasons.
Just an observation on last years team, I do believe you were the one who said the Cubs defense will be its downfall and you want Dunn the worst outfielder in the league to play right field. How can you you defend this?
The Cubs also won how many post season games the last 2 years?

[Bims]

Just an observation on last years team, I do believe you were the one who said the Cubs defense will be its downfall and you want Dunn the worst outfielder in the league to play right field. How can you you defend this?
The Cubs also won how many post season games the last 2 years? Here's the very simple answer: Bradley is not much better defensively then Dunn. Bradley played DH and LF for Texas last season. Dunn however is MUCH better offensively then Bradley, cheaper, younger, and woudln't cost the Cubs a draft pick, like Bradley does. So there's no question the younger, much more productive Dunn is the better of the two. Since the Cubs can care less about defense(Soriano LF, Fontenot\Miles 2B), it's obviously not a major concern. I had my hesitations about a Dunn\Soriano tandom in the corners, but his bat is pretty special. Would I rather have DeJesus or Hermida? Sure. If the Cubs cared about defense, Fukudome would still be the starting RF. ..... The day fans start realizing that the post season is more circumstance then talent, is the day they stop overreacting. So 97 wins in the regular season, is a reflection of 3 games in the post-season? Get some perspective people!

[Jimmy Nordon]

Here's the very simple answer: Bradley is not much better defensively then Dunn. Bradley played DH and LF for Texas last season. Dunn however is MUCH better offensively then Bradley, cheaper, younger, and woudln't cost the Cubs a draft pick, like Bradley does. So there's no question the younger, much more productive Dunn is the better of the two. Since the Cubs can care less about defense(Soriano LF, Fontenot\Miles 2B), it's obviously not a major concern. I had my hesitations about a Dunn\Soriano tandom in the corners, but his bat is pretty special. Would I rather have DeJesus or Hermida? Sure. If the Cubs cared about defense, Fukudome would still be the starting RF. ..... The day fans start realizing that the post season is more circumstance then talent, is the day they stop overreacting. So 97 wins in the regular season, is a reflection of 3 games in the post-season? Get some perspective people!

You can say with a straight face that Bradley's Glove is only a little better than Dunn's? You do realize that Dunn was voted by his peers as top 3 worst defensive player in BASEBALL.
Dunn Cracks 40 HR's and bats .230 that is not special. He hit in a park were HR's are tailor made for.
Draft picks are over rated there is a reason why there is a 50 round draft the entire thing is a crap shoot. The draft is only good for Domestic players everyone else is a sign and play.
You cant make a post last year and say the Cubs will fall apart in the playoffs because of defense and turn around and beg for Dunn to be signed. That is the reason why people get so angry with you there is always double talk. CUBS DEFENSE SUCKS!!!....THEY NEED TO SIGN DUNN FOR RF!!!!! That is a little silly dont you think.

You can not tell me that you know more about baseball than Jim Hendry which you dont say but turn around in the next sentence and bash the guy for his trades and say the guys he got are garbage...you really dont know anything about those guys except for the numbers you can look at. You dont know how they are or why they were picked, there is a reason why they are professionals. He has done a pretty good job creating Division winners but he needs to make moves and create a playoff winner. I could care less if they win 87 games next year as long as they get in the playoffs and win.

[Bockstock]

The guys aren't garbage, but I can say without any sense of uncertainty the guys the cubs got back in these trades will not be anything but throw-in in any deal to acquire a front-line starter. Hendry has had his good trades (Walker, Jacque Jones, Hawkins) and bad ones (Trachsel, Pierre, Kendall) in terms of evaluating the minor league talent involved. There is a scarcity of talent in the upper levels of the farm system right now due to terrible drafting 04-06, so it does go towards restocking the farm, but it also doesn't seem to help the team win now.

And I thought it was pretty obvious it's Lou pushing Hendry to make these moves. Hendry caters to/caves in to his managers desire too much sometimes. With the amount of salary dumps and players available it would have been a good buyers market. For example, the orioles just signed Wigginton for only half-a-million more than the money the Cubs gave Miles.

[LeeEila's/rant]

The guys aren't garbage, but I can say without any sense of uncertainty the guys the cubs got back in these trades will not be anything but throw-in in any deal to acquire a front-line starter. Hendry has had his good trades (Walker, Jacque Jones, Hawkins) and bad ones (Trachsel, Pierre, Kendall) in terms of evaluating the minor league talent involved. There is a scarcity of talent in the upper levels of the farm system right now due to terrible drafting 04-06, so it does go towards restocking the farm, but it also doesn't seem to help the team win now.

And I thought it was pretty obvious it's Lou pushing Hendry to make these moves. Hendry caters to/caves in to his managers desire too much sometimes. With the amount of salary dumps and players available it would have been a good buyers market. For example, the orioles just signed Wigginton for only half-a-million more than the money the Cubs gave Miles.

btw. The Cubs are one of three MLB teams that the payroll has not dropped $20 - $30 million. So much for a salary dump.
We are a major market team and should really not be that concerned about draft picks. As long as we can keep the revenues ( because of this , they will have to do something about Wrigley ) up we won't have to worry about it.

I know the market has really plummeted. I wonder if Hendry was reading some post here that was frothing at the mouth about baseball not being touched by the recession.:rolleyes:

Lou is behind all of these trades, like I said all along. If it fails it will be all on him and that is how it should be. I was not that happy about them re-signing Lou after our post season lack of play . I would have moved Bob Brenly down to the dugout.
Now Lou has his team and I hope he is held " accountable " ( actually applies here :) ) for the outcome .

[LeeEila's/rant]

. Since the Cubs can care less about defense(Soriano LF, Fontenot\Miles 2B), it's obviously not a major concern



Get some perspective people!

Of DeRosa and Fontenot, Fontnot had the best fielding percentage at second base.

I won't go through wild gestation's screaming that you should research your stats and be " accountable "

[Bockstock]

btw. The Cubs are one of three MLB teams that the payroll has not dropped $20 - $30 million. So much for a salary dump.




This will continue the next two years. Soriano,Z,Aram,Fukudome, Bradley will all be due raises next year. Fontenot, Theriot, Marmol, and Marshall will also be going to arbitration farily soon, as well. Since the cubs don't have much talent ML-ready at AA/AAA, IMO hanging onto cheap production would be optimal rather than paying millions for the likes of Aaron Miles of Kevin Gregg.

[Bims]

Of DeRosa and Fontenot, Fontnot had the best fielding percentage at second base.

I won't go through wild gestation's screaming that you should research your stats and be " accountable " Fielding percentage is not the way to judge who's a better defender. Come on man, think. Also, why would you compare a guy who was an everday players percentage, to a guy who was a bench player\occasional spot starter? Does that make sense?

[Bims]

btw. The Cubs are one of three MLB teams that the payroll has not dropped $20 - $30 million. Where do you get this stuff? Are you really saying that besides 3 teams in baseball, every teams payroll has cut $20-$30 million? I suggest you read more.

[Bims]

You can say with a straight face that Bradley's Glove is only a little better than Dunn's? You do realize that Dunn was voted by his peers as top 3 worst defensive player in BASEBALL.
Dunn Cracks 40 HR's and bats .230 that is not special. He hit in a park were HR's are tailor made for.
Draft picks are over rated there is a reason why there is a 50 round draft the entire thing is a crap shoot. The draft is only good for Domestic players everyone else is a sign and play.
You cant make a post last year and say the Cubs will fall apart in the playoffs because of defense and turn around and beg for Dunn to be signed. That is the reason why people get so angry with you there is always double talk. CUBS DEFENSE SUCKS!!!....THEY NEED TO SIGN DUNN FOR RF!!!!! That is a little silly dont you think.

You can not tell me that you know more about baseball than Jim Hendry which you dont say but turn around in the next sentence and bash the guy for his trades and say the guys he got are garbage...you really dont know anything about those guys except for the numbers you can look at. You dont know how they are or why they were picked, there is a reason why they are professionals. He has done a pretty good job creating Division winners but he needs to make moves and create a playoff winner. I could care less if they win 87 games next year as long as they get in the playoffs and win. You have a total lack of understanding about what a minor league prospects value is. The Cubs traded away all of these players, and didn't get anything close to a top 100, or top 10 for any team prospect. That's what we know as fact. ..... You go to far lengths to start trouble. I wanted Dunn over Bradley. Get it straight. That's all. I would have much rather had Hermida, DeJesus, etc. ..... Dunn did very well when he moved to Arizona. Don't give me the "ballpark" excuse for his success. He killed us at Wrigley, and hit wherever he played. While you're throwing out numbers, check out the guys OBP. By the way, Bradley played in a better hitters park then Dunn last season. ..... Draft picks, especially high ones, are very valuable. The more talent you have in your system, the better your team is. It's not like the Cubs lose a 50th round pick in signing Bradley. They lose a very high pick.

[LeeEila's/rant]

Where do you get this stuff? Are you really saying that besides 3 teams in baseball, every teams payroll has cut $20-$30 million? I suggest you read more.

One time I had a Jehovah's Witness come to my door . I invited him in and let him do his best sales job. I got him a glass of water and start prostletizing to him about the love of Jesus and True Faith. He got a shocked look on his face , put both hands on his ears and started rambling about " untruths " and ran from my home .
I thought I would never have another experience like that again in my life , but Bim , you proved me wrong.:rolleyes:

[Bims]

One time I had a Jehovah's Witness come to my door . I invited him in and let him do his best sales job. I got him a glass of water and start prostletizing to him about the love of Jesus and True Faith. He got a shocked look on his face , put both hands on his ears and started rambling about " untruths " and ran from my home .
I thought I would never have another experience like that again in my life , but Bim , you proved me wrong.:rolleyes: Look, if you really think that 27 of the 30 teams in major league baseball, have dropped their payrolls 20-30 million dollars, then you are living in a reality of your own.

[LeeEila's/rant]

Look, if you really think that 27 of the 30 teams in major league baseball, have dropped their payrolls 20-30 million dollars, then you are living in a reality of your own.

MLB network , turn it on. :rolleyes:

[Bims]

MLB network , turn it on. :rolleyes: Think about how ridiculous that sounds? You have teams who automatically have to give raises out because of arbitration. This is not counting the FA's that will still be signed by teams still this of-season. Off the top of my head, without doing any number crunching: Cubs, Rays, Phillies, Mets, Yankees, Tigers, Red Sox, Braves, A's, Cardinals, Rockies, Giants, Indians, Baltimore, Arizona, Minnestota, Kansas City, Washington, Pirates, Rays, and Marlins all seem like teams who haven't cut 20-30 million dollars from their payroll. From basic common sense, lets take the bottom 6 payrolls from last season, all of which are under 60 million dollars: Rays, Royals, Marlins, Pirates, Washington, A's. Now using common sense, do you really thing these teams cut 20-30 million dollars worth of payroll? They wouldn't field a team if they did so. The Marlins alone had a payroll of 20 some million last season. Think about it!

[cubsfan162512]

You can say with a straight face that Bradley's Glove is only a little better than Dunn's? You do realize that Dunn was voted by his peers as top 3 worst defensive player in BASEBALL.
Dunn Cracks 40 HR's and bats .230 that is not special. He hit in a park were HR's are tailor made for.
Draft picks are over rated there is a reason why there is a 50 round draft the entire thing is a crap shoot. The draft is only good for Domestic players everyone else is a sign and play.
You cant make a post last year and say the Cubs will fall apart in the playoffs because of defense and turn around and beg for Dunn to be signed. That is the reason why people get so angry with you there is always double talk. CUBS DEFENSE SUCKS!!!....THEY NEED TO SIGN DUNN FOR RF!!!!! That is a little silly dont you think.

You can not tell me that you know more about baseball than Jim Hendry which you dont say but turn around in the next sentence and bash the guy for his trades and say the guys he got are garbage...you really dont know anything about those guys except for the numbers you can look at. You dont know how they are or why they were picked, there is a reason why they are professionals. He has done a pretty good job creating Division winners but he needs to make moves and create a playoff winner. I could care less if they win 87 games next year as long as they get in the playoffs and win.

his lifetime .380 obp is very good and that is a much better stat than batting average

[cubsfan162512]

Fielding percentage is not the way to judge who's a better defender. Come on man, think. Also, why would you compare a guy who was an everday players percentage, to a guy who was a bench player\occasional spot starter? Does that make sense?

also fielding percentage is a horrible way to judge a player's defensive ability

[Jimmy Nordon]

You have a total lack of understanding about what a minor league prospects value is. The Cubs traded away all of these players, and didn't get anything close to a top 100, or top 10 for any team prospect. That's what we know as fact. ..... You go to far lengths to start trouble. I wanted Dunn over Bradley. Get it straight. That's all. I would have much rather had Hermida, DeJesus, etc. ..... Dunn did very well when he moved to Arizona. Don't give me the "ballpark" excuse for his success. He killed us at Wrigley, and hit wherever he played. While you're throwing out numbers, check out the guys OBP. By the way, Bradley played in a better hitters park then Dunn last season. ..... Draft picks, especially high ones, are very valuable. The more talent you have in your system, the better your team is. It's not like the Cubs lose a 50th round pick in signing Bradley. They lose a very high pick.

Ok now explain to me how you made a thread about the Cubs defense going to be its downfall and you want to sign Dunn. I will say it again Dunn was voted top three worst defenders in baseball by his peers, how can you explain both wanting better defense and Dunn in right field?

I have a lack of understanding about minors? What do you know about the guys in the minors now? Do you scout or are you a GM? How do you know these guys will turn out to be garbage? How is Luis Montoea doing?

[Bims]

Ok now explain to me how you made a thread about the Cubs defense going to be its downfall and you want to sign Dunn. I will say it again Dunn was voted top three worst defenders in baseball by his peers, how can you explain both wanting better defense and Dunn in right field?

I have a lack of understanding about minors? What do you know about the guys in the minors now? Do you scout or are you a GM? How do you know these guys will turn out to be garbage? How is Luis Montoea doing? Ok Jim, you're having trouble understanding what i'm saying on both topics, so i'll type really slow in the hopes that it conveys some better understanding on your part. 1) I'd sign Dunn over Bradley. That's the point here. Their are some RF's I'd rather have then Dunn(Hermida, DeJesus) that I wish the Cubs would have went after. But if it's between Dunn and Bradley, I want Dunn. Why? Neither are good defenders. Bradley is a LF moving to RF. He also played DH last season, do to his contunuous injuries limiting his mobility. You keep going back to some survey by peers. So your basis for him being a terrible defender is 50 baseball players taking a survey they don't care about. We all know Dunn is a bad defener. My point is, Bradley isn't a good defender, and he's not that much better then Dunn. However, Dunn is much better offensively then Bradley. If I had it my way, Hermida would be in RF. ..... Again, i'm going to type slow. Ofcourse we have no idea what these prospects will do, or how good they will be. What we do know is their labeled value is around baseball. So the Cubs gave up some solid Players with potential, for zero minor leaguers with top 10 prospect value in their organization. So the value of the trade wasn't very good. This isn't about predicting we got bad prospects in return, it's about acknowledging that we didn't get any highly valued prospects in return. VALUED

[LeeEila's/rant]

You are hopeless Bim. You are convinced that baseball is having no economic turn down and will never admit it no matter what is shown to you .

You are think we should have gotten #1 prospects for what we according to you " dumped " . I have never heard such unreasonable nonsense. Marquis was over-paid by what you and many others thought but now you think someone should take on that bad paper and give us prospects in return. DeRosa has one year on his contract basically a rent a player and the same people should empty their farm for that one year and have the privilege of paying his contract ( one that most thought was way too high when Hendry signed him ) . Pie who was bust every time he was given a chance in the majors .
Cedano was a one tool player . Bob Howry was the most hated relief pitcher on the staff by all of the fans. Wuertz , I can't remember but one game last year that he made any difference in.
I am amazed we got anything but a bucket of balls for all of these guys combined. I guess we are not allowed in your world of dream trades so we will never understand where you are coming from. So you just go through your wild antics and be condescending to everyone that challenges your outlook . Whatever makes you feel good , I am bored by it.

[Bockstock]

You are think we should have gotten #1 prospects for what we according to you " dumped ". Pie who was bust every time he was given a chance in the majors . Cedano was a one tool player . Bob Howry was the most hated relief pitcher on the staff by all of the fans. Wuertz , I can't remember but one game last year that he made any difference in.
.

You could make good arguments to counter each of those cases

Pie would have outperformed Gathright and would have been cheaper
-Cedeno would have outperformed Miles and would have been much, much cheaper. I don't know what people expect from Cedeno. For a backup SS he's more than adequate.
-Howry, well he sucks, you can't argue that
-Wuertz, I don't mind trading him with the bullpen depth, but in terms of cost-effectiveness there's a fair chance he'll be just as good as Kevin Gregg or Vizcaino, who are making 4 times as much as Wuertz.

If you're going to argue cost-effectiveness and the economy you have to look at both sides. Selling low doesn't fit the economy-efficient argument.

[LeeEila's/rant]

Pie was proven to be a bad base runner. The only weapon Gaithright offers is good base running. If you look at the way Lou would play either player it is an upgrade. I could never see Lou ever putting Pie back at the plate. I will give you Wuertz against what we have now.
Miles will be very important. The Dodgers had us completely scouted and showed the entire league how to shut down our offence. Every team in baseball saw that game and would never pitch us the same way again if we did not change our line up. One thing I agree with Lou on ,we had to get a balanced line up. If we did not get a switch hitting utility guy we would still be forced to put a Ward up there with nothing on either side of him.

[Bims]

You are hopeless Bim. You are convinced that baseball is having no economic turn down and will never admit it no matter what is shown to you .

You are think we should have gotten #1 prospects for what we according to you " dumped " . I have never heard such unreasonable nonsense. Marquis was over-paid by what you and many others thought but now you think someone should take on that bad paper and give us prospects in return. DeRosa has one year on his contract basically a rent a player and the same people should empty their farm for that one year and have the privilege of paying his contract ( one that most thought was way too high when Hendry signed him ) . Pie who was bust every time he was given a chance in the majors .
Cedano was a one tool player . Bob Howry was the most hated relief pitcher on the staff by all of the fans. Wuertz , I can't remember but one game last year that he made any difference in.
I am amazed we got anything but a bucket of balls for all of these guys combined. I guess we are not allowed in your world of dream trades so we will never understand where you are coming from. So you just go through your wild antics and be condescending to everyone that challenges your outlook . Whatever makes you feel good , I am bored by it. Talking baseball with you and Nordon just isn't realistic. I feel like i'm in the twilight zone when i'm doing so. You make crazy statements, like your classic "27 of the 30 teams in baseball have have cut their payrolls 20-30 million", or "Big Jim didn't offer Kerry Wood arbitration to help him get more money" are plucked right from the baseball version of the national enquirer. You use words like contradiction, yet you don't know what it means, and can't give examples of how it has taken place. And you run and hide from retorts to most of your bs, but since I'd rather talk baseball then fight, I let it go. On top of that, you have trouble with basic reading comprehension. Substance my friend, produce it sometime. ..... Being cost efficient is exactly what the Cubs aren't doing, and that's the point as to why some of these trades are bad. Why sign Joey Gathright, when you have a younger, cheaper player with more upside in Felix Pie? Why trade Michael Wuertz for basically nothing, but trade our 3rd best prospect(Ceda) for a much more expensive, but not much better pitcher in Kevin Gregg? Why trade Rich Hill for nothing? Why not atleast give him spring training? The player the Cubs will get in return will never be heard from again anyway. Why not offer Kerry Wood arbitration? I know you still can't wrap your head around that very simple concept, but Big Jim didn't offer it to him because he was afraid Kerry would except it. Why trade Cedeno away, but sign Aaron Miles, an older much more expensive player? Cedeno had improved, is a better defensive player, faster, and has more upside. The main point here, the one you and Nordon can't understand, is why just make trades for the sake of making trades? Because in some cases, that's what it seems like Big Jim did. They didn't make the Cubs better as a team, and cost the Cubs more money. If you aren't going to get good return for these players, why not just hold onto them, you don't have to trade them. In the end, none of the moves that were made, made the Cubs a better team. Big Jim overreacted this off-season. This is not a 97 win team anymore!

[Bockstock]

Pie was proven to be a bad base runner. The only weapon Gaithright offers is good base running. If you look at the way Lou would play either player it is an upgrade. I could never see Lou ever putting Pie back at the plate. I will give you Wuertz against what we have now.
Miles will be very important. The Dodgers had us completely scouted and showed the entire league how to shut down our offence. Every team in baseball saw that game and would never pitch us the same way again if we did not change our line up. One thing I agree with Lou on ,we had to get a balanced line up. If we did not get a switch hitting utility guy we would still be forced to put a Ward up there with nothing on either side of him.

If you're talking about offense, Pie is just about the same as Gathright through his first 260 major league at-bats, but being 23 has a much better chance to improve his numbers and has a much better minor league track record. We're not tlalking about Henderson, Gathright has only had two seasons where his SB success has been above 80%.

I'm not sure how you can say someone like Miles (career .329 obp 16 hr) is a difference maker. Yea, switch-hitters are nice to have, but it's also nice if they are actually better than the guy they are replacing. miles career line vs. rhp is 290/321/368 and against lhp is 284/352/352, barely replacement level. If he can repeat 08 great, but the odds are against him.

[LeeEila's/rant]

If you're talking about offense, Pie is just about the same as Gathright through his first 260 major league at-bats, but being 23 has a much better chance to improve his numbers and has a much better minor league track record. We're not tlalking about Henderson, Gathright has only had two seasons where his SB success has been above 80%.

I'm not sure how you can say someone like Miles (career .329 obp 16 hr) is a difference maker. Yea, switch-hitters are nice to have, but it's also nice if they are actually better than the guy they are replacing. miles career line vs. rhp is 290/321/368 and against lhp is 284/352/352, barely replacement level. If he can repeat 08 great, but the odds are against him.



The fact is Gathright will have a better chance at success here than Pie , he was out of chances. Gathright SB success is still two seasons better than Pie. Pie 2 yrs. 260 AB 11 SB Gathright 1 yr. 279 AB 21 SB

Cedano .289 / .350 / .252 Miles .328 / .364 / .289 Looks better to me.

I said they were upgrades not difference makers , that was someone else saying that.

[Bims]

One time I had a Jehovah's Witness come to my door . I invited him in and let him do his best sales job. I got him a glass of water and start prostletizing to him about the love of Jesus and True Faith. He got a shocked look on his face , put both hands on his ears and started rambling about " untruths " and ran from my home .
I thought I would never have another experience like that again in my life , but Bim , you proved me wrong.:rolleyes: One more thing about your "The Cubs are only 1 of 3 teams in baseball who haven't reduced their payroll 20-30 million dollars" quote. Yes the same quote that produced your over the top, Jesus-Jehovah's Witness, you making him run away because you told him the real truth, I guess you would call it metaphor? Besides the obvious common sense factor, that you somehow couldn't grasp, that makes that statement sound ridiculous. In Jason Starks latest column, he points out that 11 teams so far this year will INCREASE their payrolls from last season. That's without the rest of the free agents being signed this off-season, including Manny to the Dodgers. Those teams that will increase payroll so far: Cubs, Phillies, Mariners, Astros, Indians, Rays, Rockies, Royals, A's, Pirates, and Marlins. That's 11 teams right off the bat that are obviously not reducing payroll 20-30 million. On top of that, all the teams that basically stayed the same. But, you are probably going to very convenietly ignore this post, like so many of the others that have countered your over-the-top statements.

[Jimmy Nordon]

Talking baseball with you and Nordon just isn't realistic.

Bims you are sad, the fact that you can not admit what PROFESSIONAL baseball players say but what you think is the truth about Dunn's terrible defense just throws any spec of credibility you might have out the window. You cry about the defense at playoff time and you want the worst one in baseball.

I guess these guys dont know what hey are talking about

http://www2.sportsnet.ca/baseball/mlb/players/Adam_Dunn/

Interesting:
http://www2.sportsnet.ca/baseball/mlb/players/Milton_Bradley/

http://msn.foxsports.com/mlb/playerScouting?categoryId=85647


Bims so where exactly did you scout Bradley and Bradley is only a little better than Dunn?

[Bims]

Bims you are sad, the fact that you can not admit what PROFESSIONAL baseball players say but what you think is the truth about Dunn's terrible defense just throws any spec of credibility you might have out the window. You cry about the defense at playoff time and you want the worst one in baseball.

I guess these guys dont know what hey are talking about

http://www2.sportsnet.ca/baseball/mlb/players/Adam_Dunn/

Interesting:
http://www2.sportsnet.ca/baseball/mlb/players/Milton_Bradley/

http://msn.foxsports.com/mlb/playerScouting?categoryId=85647


Bims so where exactly did you scout Bradley and Bradley is only a little better than Dunn? You still can't understand this very simple concept. You can't get ovet the fact that I'd rather have Dunn over Bradley. That's it. This has nothing to do with defense, but rather, with what's available. If I had it my way, the Cubs would have gotten a young, well-rounded right fielder, that was above average defensively. But the question is Dunn or Bradley, and I choose Dunn. Because of his injuries, Bradley has lost mobility defensively. He's not able to get good jumps off the ball. For those very reasons, Bradley played DH and LF last season for the Rangers. Nobody is disputing that Dunn is a below average defender. My point is, Bradley isn't that much better. But Dunn is that much better offensively then Bradley. Understanding yet? Or are you just that upset with my simple opinion? I'll pose this question to you, how is Bradley such a good defender?

[Jimmy Nordon]

You still can't understand this very simple concept. You can't get ovet the fact that I'd rather have Dunn over Bradley. That's it. This has nothing to do with defense, but rather, with what's available. If I had it my way, the Cubs would have gotten a young, well-rounded right fielder, that was above average defensively. But the question is Dunn or Bradley, and I choose Dunn. Because of his injuries, Bradley has lost mobility defensively. He's not able to get good jumps off the ball. For those very reasons, Bradley played DH and LF last season for the Rangers. Nobody is disputing that Dunn is a below average defender. My point is, Bradley isn't that much better. But Dunn is that much better offensively then Bradley. Understanding yet? Or are you just that upset with my simple opinion? I'll pose this question to you, how is Bradley such a good defender?

You are not understanding what I am asking you, My question has been how can you defend wanting someone who is so terrible defensively and last year you said the Cubs would lose in the playoffs because of defense?

You seem to not answer this question why is that? Why will you not answer that question?

You keep saying Bradley is terrible defense but when I show you the scouting report you blow it off, why is that?
Here you go I posted it for easy to look at view for you.
Scouting report.
Bradley:
Assets
Has the total package of speed, arm strength, switch-hitting ability, power and defensive prominence. Can come through in the clutch.

Dunn:
Flaws
Has tons of trouble making consistent contact, which prevent him from becoming a better hitter for average. Defensively, he struggles in all areas.

You seem to over look the scouting reports and say you know better, Bradley is just a little better defensively and so much worse offensively.
This doesn't make sense. Bradley does not stack up against Dunn and because of that his defense makes no difference?
Player AB R H DBL TPL HR RBI SB CS BB K AVG OBP SLG
Milton Bradley 414 78 133 32 1 22 77 5 3 80 112 .321 .436 .563
Adam Dunn 517 79 122 23 0 40 100 2 1 122 164 .236 .386 .513

OK so going off of last years stats Dunn is hands down better than Bradley and we should over look that DUNN is the worst fielder in baseball and they should just sign Ted Williams oops I mean Adam Dunn because he is AWESOME.

Can you please answer the questions I left you. Thank you.

[LeeEila's/rant]

One more thing about your "The Cubs are only 1 of 3 teams in baseball who haven't reduced their payroll 20-30 million dollars" quote. Yes the same quote that produced your over the top, Jesus-Jehovah's Witness, you making him run away because you told him the real truth, I guess you would call it metaphor? Besides the obvious common sense factor, that you somehow couldn't grasp, that makes that statement sound ridiculous. In Jason Starks latest column, he points out that 11 teams so far this year will INCREASE their payrolls from last season. That's without the rest of the free agents being signed this off-season, including Manny to the Dodgers. Those teams that will increase payroll so far: Cubs, Phillies, Mariners, Astros, Indians, Rays, Rockies, Royals, A's, Pirates, and Marlins. That's 11 teams right off the bat that are obviously not reducing payroll 20-30 million. On top of that, all the teams that basically stayed the same. But, you are probably going to very convenietly ignore this post, like so many of the others that have countered your over-the-top statements.


http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/columns/story?columnist=stark_jayson&page=rumblings090206

If you read the whole article it supports my contention from the beginning , the one that you have refused to believe !!! This article is one of the better examples that shows your contention that baseball is not affected by the economy , is full of crap. Our did you completely forget ?
It also says that most FA's won't sign by the trade deadline . Look at another post that you argued to the contrary.

You jumped on some hyperbole I used to stress my point and totally ignore the entire premise !!

You have to be a cartoon , nobody could be so foolish to keep up this argument.

[Bims]

http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/columns/story?columnist=stark_jayson&page=rumblings090206

If you read the whole article it supports my contention from the beginning , the one that you have refused to believe !!! This article is one of the better examples that shows your contention that baseball is not affected by the economy , is full of crap. Our did you completely forget ?
It also says that most FA's won't sign by the trade deadline . Look at another post that you argued to the contrary.

You jumped on some hyperbole I used to stress my point and totally ignore the entire premise !!

You have to be a cartoon , nobody could be so foolish to keep up this argument. Lee, are you seriously going to take the cowards way out? Your contention was that the Cubs were 1 of 3 teams in basbeall who didn't cut their payroll 20-30 million. Now that you were caught making that up, you try and hide behind other statements. I don't know why I expected anything different though. ..... And my contention was that any impact free agent will not be available mid-season. Please name one impact free agent that will be available mid-season? ..... I never said the economy had no effect on baseball, I said it didn't have this major life changing effect on baseball. First off, if you read the article, as of right now 11 teams are going to have higher payrolls then last season. That number will go up with arbitration numbers, and the remaining free agents being signed. Does the economy have a major effect on the real world? Absolutely! But baseball has its own seperate economy. It's become cliche to blame the economy for everything, but just look at the awful, over paid contracts that have gone out this season. A trend has also taken place over the past 5 years. Teams are going with younger, cheaper players that they have control of, instead of the aging veteran that costs much more(ages 35 and up). Teams have also taken longer to sign players, trying to get some sort of discount. This isn't a new concept. Remember last season, The Cardinals didn't sign Kyle Lohse until mid-march. One last thing that's continuing to happen, teams are signing players to heavy incentive laden contracts based on performance. For example, Randy Wolf's latest contract is for 5MM, but with incentives it can go up to 9MM. ..... Lee, you just aren't worth talking baseball with. Like Nordon, you hate people who actually know baseball, so you try and stir them up. But you always ignore being called out for your awful made-up statements. Like: Big Jim didn't offer Kerry arbitration in order to help Kerry get a better deal. ... 27 of the 30 teams in baseball have cut 20-30 million dollars from last years payrolls. ... Soriano was a party animal, and Pie and Cedeno were bad influences on him.

[Bims]

You are not understanding what I am asking you, My question has been how can you defend wanting someone who is so terrible defensively and last year you said the Cubs would lose in the playoffs because of defense?

You seem to not answer this question why is that? Why will you not answer that question?

You keep saying Bradley is terrible defense but when I show you the scouting report you blow it off, why is that?
Here you go I posted it for easy to look at view for you.
Scouting report.
Bradley:
Assets
Has the total package of speed, arm strength, switch-hitting ability, power and defensive prominence. Can come through in the clutch.

Dunn:
Flaws
Has tons of trouble making consistent contact, which prevent him from becoming a better hitter for average. Defensively, he struggles in all areas.

You seem to over look the scouting reports and say you know better, Bradley is just a little better defensively and so much worse offensively.
This doesn't make sense. Bradley does not stack up against Dunn and because of that his defense makes no difference?
Player AB R H DBL TPL HR RBI SB CS BB K AVG OBP SLG
Milton Bradley 414 78 133 32 1 22 77 5 3 80 112 .321 .436 .563
Adam Dunn 517 79 122 23 0 40 100 2 1 122 164 .236 .386 .513

OK so going off of last years stats Dunn is hands down better than Bradley and we should over look that DUNN is the worst fielder in baseball and they should just sign Ted Williams oops I mean Adam Dunn because he is AWESOME.

Can you please answer the questions I left you. Thank you. Listen borderline stalker, get over the fact that we differ in opinions. I don't care what a scouting report says, or a silly pole that was done by a group of players, in my opinion Bradley is not that much better defensively then Dunn. But Dunn is that much better offensively then Bradley. Simple. You disagree, ok. ..... You keep going back to this "defensive" argument of why I would want a bad defender. I'll say this one more time, IF I HAD MY CHOICE, I'D HAVE THE CUBS TRADE FOR A YOUNG, WELL ROUNDED PLAYER WHO COULD PLAY ABOVE AVERAGE DEFENSE. BUT IF IT'S BETWEEN DUNN, BRADLEY, AND ABREU, I'D TAKE DUNN. Now, lets see how you keep this going somehow.

[LeeEila's/rant]

Lee, are you seriously going to take the cowards way out? Your contention was that the Cubs were 1 of 3 teams in basbeall who didn't cut their payroll 20-30 million. Now that you were caught making that up, you try and hide behind other statements. Geeze man, your ridiculous. ..... And my contention was that any impact free agent will not be available mid-season. Please name one.

What " impact " player will not be available ? give us a list of impact players

And now are you admitting the Cubs did not " dump " payroll ?

And also admitting there is a recession in baseball ?

And stop calling me a liar , it is beginning to annoy me even more than your ability to ignore all facts presented to you . How much more can be presented before you to prove you are dead wrong about Dunn?

[Bims]

What " impact " player will not be available ? give us a list of impact players

And now are you admitting the Cubs did not " dump " payroll ?

And also admitting there is a recession in baseball ?

And stop calling me a liar , it is beginning to annoy me even more than your ability to ignore all facts presented to you . How much more can be presented before you to prove you are dead wrong about Dunn? You avoid simple questions Lee. I asked you, what impact free agents will be available mid-season? ..... Where did I admit the Cubs did not "dump" payroll? Reading comprehension, please. ..... My opinion on Dunn is exactly that, an opinion. Their is no right or wrong answer.

[LeeEila's/rant]

You avoid simple questions Lee. I asked you, what impact free agents will be available mid-season?

That's it ? That is all you have ? You are the one tossing around the word " impact " . Explain what you are meaning .

[LeeEila's/rant]

You avoid simple questions Lee. I asked you, what impact free agents will be available mid-season? ..... Where did I admit the Cubs did not "dump" payroll? Reading comprehension, please. ..... My opinion on Dunn is exactly that, an opinion. Their is no right or wrong answer.



LMAO !!! So now you are the only one allowed to have an opinion and not be ridiculed for how wrong it is !!!

After YOU from day one you posted here made a career ridiculing anyone who's opinion dares to differ from yours !!
THAT IS RICH !!!

[Jimmy Nordon]

Really you *&%^*%(&*% you know baseball? You have been screaming the cubs lost a draft pick because of Bradley go check it out yourself.
http://www.mlbtraderumors.com/2008/10/bradley-gets-ty.html

How anybody reads your stuff and takes you serious is beyond me. How you think that you are the authority on baseball is beyond me. Go drunk drive yourself off a cliff.

[Bims]

LMAO !!! So now you are the only one allowed to have an opinion and not be ridiculed for how wrong it is !!!

After YOU from day one you posted here made a career ridiculing anyone who's opinion dares to differ from yours !!
THAT IS RICH !!! Listen insane person, you make claims as facts, not as opinions.

[Jimmy Nordon]

Listen borderline stalker, get over the fact that we differ in opinions. I don't care what a scouting report says, or a silly pole that was done by a group of players, in my opinion Bradley is not that much better defensively then Dunn. But Dunn is that much better offensively then Bradley. Simple. You disagree, ok. ..... You keep going back to this "defensive" argument of why I would want a bad defender. I'll say this one more time, IF I HAD MY CHOICE, I'D HAVE THE CUBS TRADE FOR A YOUNG, WELL ROUNDED PLAYER WHO COULD PLAY ABOVE AVERAGE DEFENSE. BUT IF IT'S BETWEEN DUNN, BRADLEY, AND ABREU, I'D TAKE DUNN. Now, lets see how you keep this going somehow.
STFU calling people a stalker I am calling you a douche noozle and a fraud who comes off trying to be a know it all and you are not.
I know you dont care what a scouting report says because a professional is proving you wrong.
I know you dont care what PROFESSIONAL BASEBALL PLAYERS are telling you because it is proving you wrong.
I know you dont care what I am telling you because I am proving you wrong.

You cant answer my questions because you know I have proved you wrong like I have done over and over and over again. No wonder you call me a stalker because I read you nonsense on this board and call you out on it and you hide and cant answer my questions. WHAT A J/O you are.

[LeeEila's/rant]

Listen insane person, you make claims as facts, not as opinions.

Look through all of my post and bring up any that proves your point . Show me once that I presented a false fact and invented resources . All I have ever done is voice an opinion. Just like everyone else that you found so easy to dismiss , ridicule and bully .

[Bims]

Really you *&%^*%(&*% you know baseball? You have been screaming the cubs lost a draft pick because of Bradley go check it out yourself.
http://www.mlbtraderumors.com/2008/10/bradley-gets-ty.html

How anybody reads your stuff and takes you serious is beyond me. How you think that you are the authority on baseball is beyond me. Go drunk drive yourself off a cliff.I love when you 2 insane people make a statement, then get proven wrong. Once again, try reading everything genius. Here's the article, try reading it again slower: .......... It seems that teams have received the official Elias rankings, so we'll have to see if they're posted publicly today. Evan Grant of the Dallas Morning News reports that Milton Bradley is officially a Type B free agent. Bradley was right around the Type A/B borderline.

This is good news for teams other than the Rangers that may wish to sign Bradley. As a Type B, he can be signed without his new team surrending a draft pick. The Rangers will still snag a supplemental pick if they offer him arbitration and he declines and signs elsewhere.

[Jimmy Nordon]

I love when you 2 insane people make a statement, then get proven wrong. Once again, try reading everything genius. Here's the article, try reading it again slower: .......... It seems that teams have received the official Elias rankings, so we'll have to see if they're posted publicly today. Evan Grant of the Dallas Morning News reports that Milton Bradley is officially a Type B free agent. Bradley was right around the Type A/B borderline.

This is good news for teams other than the Rangers that may wish to sign Bradley. As a Type B, he can be signed without his new team surrending a draft pick. The Rangers will still snag a supplemental pick if they offer him arbitration and he declines and signs elsewhere.

OH MY GOD YOU A-HOLE
As a Type B, he can be signed without his new team surrending a draft pick.

[Bims]

Look through all of my post and bring up any that proves your point . Show me once that I presented a false fact and invented resources . All I have ever done is voice an opinion. Just like everyone else that you found so easy to dismiss , ridicule and bully . 27 of the 30 teams in baseball have cut their payrolls 20-30 million. ... Soriano was a party animal, Cedeno and Pie were bad influences on him. ... Big Jim offered Kerry a 1 year deal, but then pulled it to help him get a better deal.

[Bims]

OH MY GOD YOU A-HOLE
As a Type B, he can be signed without his new team surrending a draft pick. Slow down psycho. Your own insecurities are driving you insane.

[LeeEila's/rant]

27 of the 30 teams in baseball have cut their payrolls 20-30 million. ... Soriano was a party animal, Cedeno and Pie were bad influences on him. ... Big Jim offered Kerry a 1 year deal, but then pulled it to help him get a better deal.

Prove them !!!!

[Jimmy Nordon]

Slow down psycho. Your own insecurities are driving you insane.

My insecurities have driven me insane? What are you an idiot I proved you wrong AGAIN and instead of saying look I was wrong you go ahead and start calling people names. You are an idiot.

[Bims]

Prove them !!!! Funny, you made the claims, you're the one that's suppose to prove them. But i'll disprove them, but i'm guessing you won't understand. ..... Ok, now trying using common sense here Lee. Doesn't it seem silly to think that every team in baseball except 3 have cut their payrolls 20-30 million dollars? In Strak's article, he very clearly points out that 11 teams have increased their payrolls from last season. Right there is your proof. Simple right? If 11 teams increased their payroll, then how can 27 teams decrease it 20-30 million? See where i'm going here? ..... If Big Jim offered Kerry a 1 year contract, why don't the Cubs have a draft pick? What sense does it make not to offer arbitration to a player, unless you are afraid that he will accpet it. Right? Big Jim didn't want Kerry at all, hence he didn't offer him a contract, hence the Cubs don't have a draft pick? SImple right? ..... I've never heard or read anything about Soriano being a party animal, or Pie and Cedeno influencing him. How can Pie influence Soriano from Iowa, the place where Pie was most of last season?

[Jimmy Nordon]

I like you cant admit that you have no idea what you are talking about with Bradley and how you look like an idiot now.
GO BIMS!

[Bims]

My insecurities have driven me insane? What are you an idiot I proved you wrong AGAIN and instead of saying look I was wrong you go ahead and start calling people names. You are an idiot. Look man, you have an obsession for me. It's annoying as hell, and you cause problems in every thread i'm in. ... LOL, yea i'm the one that calls names. Come on man, get it together. ... I will say that it does look like I was wrong about Bradley costing the Cubs a pick. I was sure that Bradley was a type A free agent, I was wrong.

[Bims]

I like you cant admit that you have no idea what you are talking about with Bradley and how you look like an idiot now.
GO BIMS! It was a simple mistake about someones status. Slow down. ..... I'm totally getting a single white female vibe here.

[Jimmy Nordon]

It was a simple mistake about someones status. Slow down.

Sure it was. I ask you a question and you attack. You are a dope.

[Bims]

Sure it was. I ask you a question and you attack. You are a dope. The problem is Nordon, you don't ask questions. You are overaggressive, and always trying to stir something up. Slow down.

[Jimmy Nordon]

Look man, you have an obsession for me. It's annoying as hell, and you cause problems in every thread i'm in. ... LOL, yea i'm the one that calls names. Come on man, get it together. ... I will say that it does look like I was wrong about Bradley costing the Cubs a pick. I was sure that Bradley was a type A free agent, I was wrong.

A thread is going on and I ask you a question which you dont like because it shows your lack of a straight answer or understanding and I have an obsession with you?
I bring you facts and opinions of PROFESSIONAL baseball people but you call me stupid and say they dont matter cause you are right as you type away in your moms basement.
You bring in false facts into your arguments and you attack people and expect them to sit back and say nothing.
You explain to me how 4 people have approached me to say You have started fights with them as well and how do you figure that I am the trouble maker? There are 2 people in this thread and you have a problem with both, do you see a common theme here?

[Jimmy Nordon]

The problem is Nordon, you don't ask questions. You are overaggressive, and always trying to stir something up. Slow down.

Really I dont? Would you like me to pull up my post and see your response or lack there of one?

[Bims]

A thread is going on and I ask you a question which you dont like because it shows your lack of a straight answer or understanding and I have an obsession with you?
I bring you facts and opinions of PROFESSIONAL baseball people but you call me stupid and say they dont matter cause you are right as you type away in your moms basement.
You bring in false facts into your arguments and you attack people and expect them to sit back and say nothing.
You explain to me how 4 people have approached me to say You have started fights with them as well and how do you figure that I am the trouble maker? There are 2 people in this thread and you have a problem with both, do you see a common theme here? Don't play the babe in the woods routine. You can't simple accpet the fact that I'd rather have Dunn. That's all. It's an opinion. ..... Please name these 4 people. Do you see how you stir things up? ..... You are over the top, talk crap, and insane. Please stop acting like you just "ask a simple question".

[Bims]

Really I dont? Would you like me to pull up my post and see your response or lack there of one?
Yes, please pull up your original post today. And please name those people. Thanks!

[Bims]

LOL, I see Lee got out of answering anything.

[Jimmy Nordon]

Don't play the babe in the woods routine. You can't simple accpet the fact that I'd rather have Dunn. That's all. It's an opinion. ..... Please name these 4 people. Do you see how you stir things up? ..... You are over the top, talk crap, and insane. Please stop acting like you just "ask a simple question".

I could care less if you who you want but here is the deal. You attack people all the time in a condensing way, make your opinions stated as facts, throw up everything against the wall to say see i told you so and less than 2 months later you are looking to make the moves that you say the Cubs will lose because of it.
No I will not name people there is no need for that because I am not looking to get other people involved in this.
I call you out on your ridiculous posts and threads and when I do you get upset and say I talk crap. That is the problem I could care less what your opinion is but when you attack me because of your opinion that is what pisses me off.
I was 15 posts into this board and you went on to attack me because of my join date and post count, that sir is sad. So when you open me up to something like that I will make sure I read into your threads a little more closely and see where you are a fraud. I have proven you as a fraud over and over again and when I do you get upset and call me a crap talker. You sir have brought this upon yourself.

[Jimmy Nordon]

Yes, please pull up your original post today. And please name those people. Thanks!

http://www.fogpog.com/showpost.php?p=71130&postcount=41
and No i will not name anyone.

[Bims]

[QUOTE=Jimmy Nordon;71194]
No I will not name people there is no need for that because I am not looking to get other people involved in this.

I was 15 posts into this board and you went on to attack me because of my join date and post count, that sir is sad. [QUOTE] Please prove these. You can easily find your very early post where I attacked you. Please provide that so we can all see. The problem is Jim, you get so frustrated with differeing opinions that you Lie. Please, I beg you, show us all the post where I attacked you about post count. Stop acting lie the victum, it's borderline insane. You have made this board impossible to like anymore.

[Bims]

http://www.fogpog.com/showpost.php?p=71130&postcount=41
and No i will not name anyone. LOL, that's not your original post from today. That's from Feb 4th.

[Bims]

Ok Jim, you have so many lies out there I don't know where to start. Ok, first, please link us to the post where I "attacked" you about your post count. It should be easy to find since it was such an early post. Link the whole thread.

[Bims]

I will give you this Nordon, you have succeeded in getting me stired up. I shouldn't have given in, but the mods let your crap go on for to long, and you just got overly annoying.

[Jimmy Nordon]

[QUOTE=Jimmy Nordon;71194]
No I will not name people there is no need for that because I am not looking to get other people involved in this.

I was 15 posts into this board and you went on to attack me because of my join date and post count, that sir is sad. [QUOTE] Please prove these. You can easily find your very early post where I attacked you. Please provide that so we can all see. The problem is Jim, you get so frustrated with differeing opinions that you Lie. Please, I beg you, show us all the post where I attacked you about post count. Stop acting lie the victum, it's borderline insane. You have made this board impossible to like anymore.

Yeah I have Bims mean while people find your posts impossible to read anymore.
Bims as soon as I bring it up you will just blow it off like you do everything else I bring up.
I bring you facts I bring up your own posts and you still say I am the problem. Calling people insane is silly, sad and pathetic which is why you are calling me names all day.
Please take some facts and read them before you attack someone and when they do bring it up dont call them insane for doing it.

[Jimmy Nordon]

I will give you this Nordon, you have succeeded in getting me stired up. I shouldn't have given in, but the mods let your crap go on for to long, and you just got overly annoying.

The mods let me go for to long Bims 2 people in this thread you have a problem with and the common thread is what?

[Bims]

[QUOTE=Bims;71196][QUOTE=Jimmy Nordon;71194]
No I will not name people there is no need for that because I am not looking to get other people involved in this.

I was 15 posts into this board and you went on to attack me because of my join date and post count, that sir is sad.

Yeah I have Bims mean while people find your posts impossible to read anymore.
Bims as soon as I bring it up you will just blow it off like you do everything else I bring up.
I bring you facts I bring up your own posts and you still say I am the problem. Calling people insane is silly, sad and pathetic which is why you are calling me names all day.
Please take some facts and read them before you attack someone and when they do bring it up dont call them insane for doing it.
Please back it up with proof. Lets see the post where I attacked you for you join date and post count.

[Jimmy Nordon]

I am done with you BIMS and your idiocy. I will not fight with you any more.

[Bims]

I am done with you BIMS and your idiocy. I will not fight with you any more.
You can't just simply back it up can you?? LOL, exactly.

[Bims]

You know what, you win Nordon. This is just insane. I'm too old to be arguing on a message board. Your intentions are obvious, but i'll give you credit, they worked. You have finally run me off. The funniest part is your angle that you've been attaced and called names, lol, that was especially funny. I understood that this was a place where not many people actually talked baseball, but their were still a few posters that I enjoyed doing it with. I wasn't always right, but I know baseball, and love talking it. Anyway, the mods lack of regulating your antics has finally gotten past the insanity barrier. A thread can not be made, where you don't try and stir something up. You've even gone to the lengths of trying to make me look like a Brewers fan. For what? Because you disagree with me. So the insanity stops, and I move on. LOL, Lee, once again you escape having to back up anything you say. To everyone else, Peace out!

[Ivy Killa]

I cant believe i just read through 11 pages of nonsense......I miss the old fogpog and all the original posters.Everyone would have intellectual discussions about baseball, humor was sometimes involved in the posts and everyone got along............ It seems such a strange concept now.

[LeeEila's/rant]

Funny, you made the claims, you're the one that's suppose to prove them. But i'll disprove them, but i'm guessing you won't understand. ..... Ok, now trying using common sense here Lee. Doesn't it seem silly to think that every team in baseball except 3 have cut their payrolls 20-30 million dollars? In Strak's article, he very clearly points out that 11 teams have increased their payrolls from last season. Right there is your proof. Simple right? If 11 teams increased their payroll, then how can 27 teams decrease it 20-30 million? See where i'm going here? ..... If Big Jim offered Kerry a 1 year contract, why don't the Cubs have a draft pick? What sense does it make not to offer arbitration to a player, unless you are afraid that he will accpet it. Right? Big Jim didn't want Kerry at all, hence he didn't offer him a contract, hence the Cubs don't have a draft pick? SImple right? ..... I've never heard or read anything about Soriano being a party animal, or Pie and Cedeno influencing him. How can Pie influence Soriano from Iowa, the place where Pie was most of last season?


You are the one calling people liars Just because you are ignorant of what someone says you chose to call them a liar.
You say you never heard of Sori being a party animal , so of course anyone saying the other has to be a liar.
Hendry said in an interveiw he offered Wood a contract , it doesn't fit your world so again another liar is born.

You are impossible . You are abusive and rude and expect to be exempted from any critism. How old are you ?

[AceCubbie]

This thread started off so well.

[Bockstock]

Wuertz so far this year - 7.2 IP 9 K O BB

Two dudes cubs got back
-ones at AA, ones not on any cubs minor league roster

[TheBenjamin]

we could use him