One reason why i don't like Soriano leading off

[Drockvb]

Call me crazy, but a leadoff solo homerun can have an adverse effect.

Soriano is great at hitting the leadoff solo homer, but is it because the opposing pitcher is just trying to get his fastball over the plate to start the game? Pitchers just want to start the game off on the right foot and find the zone so they can get their groove going for the game. No knock on Soriano, because he can hit those pitches. But pitchers seem to shut us down after he does that. I believe it just gives the opposing pitcher a wake up call and helps them focus the rest of the game.

Is a solo homer that great? I still want my leadoff hitter to have a high OBP, and i don't care if he hits a ton of homers. Solo homeruns don't do enough damage. Having the leadoff guy on base will give the opposing pitcher more stress than giving up the solo homer to start the game.

[TheBenjamin]

Call me crazy, but a leadoff solo homerun can have an adverse effect.

Soriano is great at hitting the leadoff solo homer, but is it because the opposing pitcher is just trying to get his fastball over the plate to start the game? Pitchers just want to start the game off on the right foot and find the zone so they can get their groove going for the game. No knock on Soriano, because he can hit those pitches. But pitchers seem to shut us down after he does that. I believe it just gives the opposing pitcher a wake up call and helps them focus the rest of the game.

Is a solo homer that great? I still want my leadoff hitter to have a high OBP, and i don't care if he hits a ton of homers. Solo homeruns don't do enough damage. Having the leadoff guy on base will give the opposing pitcher more stress than giving up the solo homer to start the game.


leading off a game, Soriano is 7 for 16 i believe, which includes a walk. Over .400 batting average and OBP. He is dong a fine job leading off for us.

Plus, on a side note, according to the sun-times Soriano os tied with Brian Roberts at 18 runs scored to elad the majors

[Drockvb]

I dunno. I would love to see him as an RBI producer. We are not optimizing his value with the long ball. He is our biggest home run threat. Why not get more bang for your buck?

[TheBenjamin]

I dunno. I would love to see him as an RBI producer. We are not optimizing his value with the long ball. He is our biggest home run threat. Why not get more bang for your buck?

as would I, but he is our best leadoff hitter as well. For some reason, likely mental, he hits the best in the leadoff slot. And while you only leadoff once a game (theoretically) that number one slot seemingly comes up alot at the end of games. If the Cubs are down Id love nothing more to see him come up and blast a winning HR like he as already done twice this year

[Drockvb]

I understand he will have more at bats leading off, but i want the Cubs leading in his last at bat, not trailing.

He is scoring runs, but so would Theriot and Fuku if they were batting leadoff. I want my home run leader driving in runs.

[cubsfan162512]

I understand he will have more at bats leading off, but i want the Cubs leading in his last at bat, not trailing.

He is scoring runs, but so would Theriot and Fuku if they were batting leadoff. I want my home run leader driving in runs.

How many times does a leadoff hitter bat leadoff? Then ask who our best hitter is and who should get the most at bats. I think then you will see who should be batting leadoff.

[TheBenjamin]

this is a constant struggle with Murph on 670 the Score, and John DaWaun (i cant spell his name) always gives statistical proof why he should bat leadoff. because he is our best hitter. Ram is our best run producer which is why he SHOULD bat 3

[Drockvb]

Our best hitter? If best hitter = high BA and/or high OBP, then Fuku and Theriot fill that bill as of right now. Albert Pujols may be the games best hitter and he doesn't bat leadoff for a reason.

Soriano led this team in homers last year, and is leading the way again this year. It's a shame not have him hitting behind the guys getting on base.

[TheBenjamin]

here is the stat of the week where they talk Soriano and why he should leadoff

http://www.670thescore.com/topic/play_window.php?audioType=Episode&audioId=3658301

it is about 1/2-2/3 of the way through

[TheBenjamin]

from statoftheweek.com

Soriano bats leadoff—once and for all

April 28, 2009


I hope it's finally put to bed.

This past weekend Lou Piniella experimented with his lineup and put Alfonso Soriano in the number–three slot in the batting order. He did it Friday and Saturday. The Cubs lost both games while Soriano went 1–for–8 with three whiffs. He was back at leadoff on Sunday and immediately celebrated by starting off the game with a home run for the 52nd time in his career (third–most in major league history).

Alfonso Soriano is not your prototypical leadoff man. His on–base percentage is lacking and his home–run power is something you'd like to see in the middle of the lineup. But the bottom line is that he loves batting leadoff and all the numbers back him up. He's a career .294 hitter batting leadoff and has only hit .263 batting elsewhere. He has one home run every 16 at–bats batting first and one every 22 batting elsewhere.

Here's how he and the Cubs have done since he joined them at the start of the 2007 season.

Cubs Record Overall 191–150 .560 winning percentage

Cubs without Soriano  41–42 .494
Cubs with Soriano leadoff 146–99 .596
Cubs with Soriano elsewhere  4–9 .308

The Cubs are a .500 team when Soriano doesn't play. They've played .600 ball when he bats leadoff and have a .300 winning percentage when he's elsewhere in the lineup. Batting leadoff for the Cubs, Soriano is hitting exactly .300 with a home run every 15 at–bats. Batting elsewhere he's 6–for–53 (.113) with no home runs.

Chicago Cubs fans: Let's not have this discussion anymore. Alfonso bats leadoff. QED. Once and for all. Done. Finished. End of discussion.

[cubsfan162512]

Our best hitter? If best hitter = high BA and/or high OBP, then Fuku and Theriot fill that bill as of right now. Albert Pujols may be the games best hitter and he doesn't bat leadoff for a reason.

Soriano led this team in homers last year, and is leading the way again this year. It's a shame not have him hitting behind the guys getting on base.

Best hitter is not just about OBP or BA (which is a horrible way to judge a player's offensive abilities). It is about OPS and how they set themselves up for other hitters in the lineup. Soriano, by the amount of doubles, triples, and home runs (evidenced in his SLG % and OPS), gives the Cubs hitters after him more opportunities with men in scoring position to drive in more runs. This would not happen with Theriot at the top (look at his OPS and extra base hits). He is most likely going to hit singles and not get to second base by himself (terrible at stealing bases). Alfonso Soriano is the best option in the leadoff hole because of his ability to produce runs by himself via the longball and for others by being in scoring position more than anyone else on his team.

[TheBenjamin]

well said

[Bockstock]

Yep

I saw a stat the other day that Soriano scores more leading off an inning than Rollins, Furcal and a couple of other guys.

Isn't that what matters in a leadoff hitter?? Scoring runs or putting yourself in a position to score runs without sacrificing outs??

[Drockvb]

Is Soriano our home run guy or not? I believe he is.

It's a difference in philosophy. I want my home run horse in position to deliver the knockout.

We can argue this forever, so i won't state my case anymore. :D

[TheBenjamin]

well the guy you didnt want leading off jsut came up to bat with two men on and blasted a HR...

you think your leadoff hitter of choice Theriot would have done that?

[TheBenjamin]

and the greatest leadoff hitter in history Ricky Henderson was a homerun guy (most leadoff HRs ever)

[Drockvb]

I welcome all to argue more now Soriano hit that homer.

But his chances at hitting with runners on base is greater hitting behind the better hitters.

[TheBenjamin]

yes, he is a HR hitter. but look at the stats. he does not hit as well lower in the lineup.

he gets on base for the heart of the order to drive in

he can give you instant offense.

i cant believe you still would rather have someone else in leadoff.

[Drockvb]

yes, he is a HR hitter. but look at the stats. he does not hit as well lower in the lineup.

He hasn't had enough bats down in the order to make much of an argument.

he gets on base for the heart of the order to drive in

so does Theriot and Fuku

he can give you instant offense.

i cant believe you still would rather have someone else in leadoff.

Sorry fella, but i do.

That 3 run homer is what i have been waiting for. If he hit down in the order behind the guys that get on base more often, then we wouldn't have to wait as long for that 3 run homer. :D

[TheBenjamin]

One thing that I will agree with you on, is that he would look nice in the 3 hole. But since we do not have a real leadoff hitter, who can get on base, run the bases properly (which eliminates Theriot) and steal bases (again eliminates Theriot) Soriano fills the bill nicely.

[TheBenjamin]

Have you seen Theriot's OBP lately? Have you seen him trying to run the bases? I would take just about anyone over him leading off the game

[TheBenjamin]

BTW before tonights game, Soriano has a better on base percentage and slugging percentage then Theriot.

Fukudome though beats Soriano in all those catagories at the moment

[Drockvb]

Have you seen Theriot's OBP lately? Have you seen him trying to run the bases? I would take just about anyone over him leading off the game

At the start of tonight's game,

Soriano
BA = .303
OBP = .384
SB = 3
CS = 2
SO= 20
BB = 9

Theriot
BA = .314
OBP = .372
SB = 3
CS = 2
SO = 7
BB = 7

Sori has 6 more at bats, adding up to 1 more hit and 2 more walks.

[TheBenjamin]

would you rather see Theriot or Soriano get more at bats?

[TheBenjamin]

we can discuss this back and forth all day and niether will bend. I admit that he would be a nice addition in the heart of the order, but he is the best option at leadoff

[Drockvb]

would you rather see Theriot or Soriano get more at bats?

loaded question. Soriano is more of a run producer and home run threat, so who do you think i would choose? Sori of course.

But in a game (unlike tonight) when runs are at a premium, i want Soriano hitting in the more likely spot to hit the 3 run homer. When the opposition is pitching lights out against us, usually your best hitters are the ones getting on base. When you get that guy on base against a tough pitcher you need to make them pay.

A quality opponent usually means a less chance those 7,8,9 guys are going to be on base for Soriano. Thats basically my funadamental thinking of why i like him in the run production spot in the order.

[TheBenjamin]

i wont argue, id rather see him batting with more guys on base in front of him. youd be crazy not to. im just saying, unless we get someone who can get on base at a high rate, steal bases, hit doubles Soriano is our best option. but i do agree that he would fit in nicely as a 3 hitter

[Drockvb]

Like i said in another thread, it isn't a deal breaker for me.

When all of our players are back healthy and hitting well (Lee, Soto, Bradley), it shouldn't matter much anyway.

[TheBenjamin]

exactly.

[Bockstock]

On days when Miles isn't in the lineup, Theriot is the worst offensive player on the team and should bat 8th.

The argument should really be Fukudome vs. Soriano. There's no logical reason I can think of to have Theriot as 1 or 2 with his crappy baserunning, lack of power, and him hitting into way too many double plays.

[Drockvb]

Our leadoff hitter blows. I am tired of watching leadoff homers. I want a guy who can consistently get on base at a high rate. Nothing bothers the opposing pitcher more than a guy who gets on base a lot and is a base stealing threat in front of our run producers.

Soriano is killing us at the top. His batting average has dipped to .244 and his OBP has dipped to .304. :eek: Those are not leadoff man numbers. 13 homers leads this team, but he only has 26 RBI to show for it. He should be hitting down in the line up. If he was hitting down in the lineup and had 12 homers his RBI total would be higher, thus giving us a chance to win games like last night.

Oh, and Soriano has a whopping 5 stolen bases. :rolleyes: Not exactly getting it done if you ask me.

Thanks Soriano for being our home run leader, but enough is enough. Move down in the line up please. :confused:

Why is he 3rd right now in All-Star voting anyway? I don't get it. He is near last in batting average and OBP for left fielders. I guess people overlook the bad averages, OBP, and a high number of strikeouts.

Sorry if i annoy people with my views, but this is frustrating the #$@$ out of me.

[Bockstock]

sorry, this team has bigger problems than leadoff hitter.

Leadoff hitters do not determine offensive performance. It's a myth. For example, look at the leadoff numbers for the Phillies and Rays in the postseason last year.

That being said, I wouldn't be opposed to moving Fukudome to lead-off, since he has both good OBP and power.

[LeeEila's/rant]

I just ignore Sori at that position. So to me Theriot is really leading off. I agree with Bock and would lead off Fuku. ( Mike Murphy thought I was an idiot for suggesting that earlier )

[Drockvb]

I agree on giving Fuku a try at lead off, but he isn't going to be a big base stealing threat.

We just don't have a guy that pitchers will fear putting on base. In tight ball games, having that speedy threat is very valuable. How many times have we seen our pitchers lose focus because a speedy guy sits on first? Happens all the time.

[LeeEila's/rant]

I am for anything that puts pressure on the pitcher keeping him from getting settled

[Bockstock]

Honestly if half your lineup is underperforming their expected OPS by >50 points, it really doesn't matter who your leadoff hitter is

Sor-Fuku-Lee should be 1-2-3 right now. I really don't see anyone else that will this team consistent chances to score everynight.