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  #11  
Old Oct 17th 2008, 4:43 pm
Bims Bims is offline
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If the Astros were to get Peavy(It's rumored to be his 1st choice since he has a full no trade clause) then they become very scary. The Astros are a good starting pitcher away from being a really good team.
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  #12  
Old Oct 25th 2008, 11:38 pm
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the cubs should go after peavy. upgrades at the starting pitching position are always nice.
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  #13  
Old Oct 26th 2008, 7:13 am
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I dont think that the Cubs will go after Peavy, even thogh the Cubs are on his short list of teams he would waive his no trade clause for, because they have no room for him if things stay according to plan.

Zambrano, Lill, Harden, Marquis are all here unless they can be traded. Z cant, no trade clause... though Z for Peavy?????

Might be hard to move Marquis, even though he has one year left at a reasonable amount (especially with this pitching price market)

Id love to get Peavy. Think of it. Z, Peavy, Harden, Demps, Lilly 4 Aces. Maybe if we cant move Marquis and we do trade Peavy, we can move harden to the Bullpen, much like the last arm troubled guy we had... Wood?

Harden, Samadzja, Marmol Wood... that would be a nasty BP. make it a 5 inning game
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  #14  
Old Oct 26th 2008, 12:17 pm
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There are 5 teams that Peavy said he would waive his no trade clause for

The Cubs, Astros, Cardinals, Braves and Dodgers
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  #15  
Old Oct 26th 2008, 4:38 pm
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we can move harden to the Bullpen, much like the last arm troubled guy we had... Wood?
I don't understand when people suggest moving Harden to the bullpen. Was he not great for the Cubs this past year? Didn't he stay relatively healthy this past season? I know he only goes 6 innings. But isn't 6 very good innings better then 1 very good inning? Rich is an injury risk. We all know this. But he's worth the injury risk. Pitching in consecutive days may not be an option for Harden anyway. It's not an easy thing to do. A dominant starting pitcher is much more valuable then any kind of reliever. Rich Harden is a dominant starting pitcher. And as a domnant starting pitcher he's in his most productive and valuable role to his team.
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  #16  
Old Oct 26th 2008, 5:45 pm
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I only suggested it as a possibility. I mean when he can only pitch 6 innings every 6-10 days I think that maybe he would be better served in the BP like Wood.
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  #17  
Old Oct 26th 2008, 6:30 pm
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I don't understand when people suggest moving Harden to the bullpen. Was he not great for the Cubs this past year? Didn't he stay relatively healthy this past season? I know he only goes 6 innings. But isn't 6 very good innings better then 1 very good inning? Rich is an injury risk. We all know this. But he's worth the injury risk. Pitching in consecutive days may not be an option for Harden anyway. It's not an easy thing to do. A dominant starting pitcher is much more valuable then any kind of reliever. Rich Harden is a dominant starting pitcher. And as a domnant starting pitcher he's in his most productive and valuable role to his team.
" ...Was he not great for the Cubs this past year? ..."

No. He was good, not great. 70+ innings, 5 wins: that's not great. He has a great arm; results are spotty. He's never won over 11 games.

" ...Didn't he stay relatively healthy this past season? ..."

No **** Sherlock! Considering that he posted a total of slightly over 70 innings in the 2 previous years combined he was a pillar of health. A paragon of vitality. Explain to me how you expect it to continue? He has never approached his career high of 190 innings (when he was 22) since. What makes you think, as you stated once, that he is a 180 - 200 inning type guy. Unfortunately he is a DL candidate deluxe. His innings need to be minimized to maximize his value and effectiveness.

" ...But isn't 6 very good innings better then 1 very good inning? ..." Why? Why does everybody discount relief pitching? 9 solid innings are needed every game.

" ...Pitching in consecutive days may not be an option for Harden anyway...."

Why not? Just more egotistical blathering on your part? Nobody will ever know until he tries to pitch on consecutive days.

" ...A dominant starting pitcher is much more valuable then any kind of reliever. Rich Harden is a dominant starting pitcher. And as a domnant starting pitcher he's in his most productive and valuable role to his team. ..."

The first sentence may not be true. You essentially imply that a Jason Marquis is more likely to help a given team produce a winning record than a Bruce Sutter. Balderdash!

The second sentence is true. If you, in your infinite wisdom, could give me compelling facts that Rich can pitch 180+ innings I will also argue he should stay in the rotation.

The third sentence in nonsense given his history of non-availability.
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  #18  
Old Oct 26th 2008, 7:11 pm
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"The first sentence may not be true. You essentially imply that a Jason Marquis is more likely to help a given team produce a winning record than a Bruce Sutter. Balderdash!

.
It's generally accepted in baseball and SABR that starting pitching is more valuable.

At the beginning of the year, BP had Ryan Dempster with a higher VORP as a starter than a reliever and they had him projected at a 4.5 ERA, much higher than his ERA as a closer.

It's mainly the idea Relief pitchers are failed starters who are thrown into situations favorable to their talents and don't get too face batters more than once.
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  #19  
Old Oct 26th 2008, 7:22 pm
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It's generally accepted in baseball and SABR that starting pitching is more valuable.

At the beginning of the year, BP had Ryan Dempster with a higher VORP as a starter than a reliever and they had him projected at a 4.5 ERA, much higher than his ERA as a closer.

It's mainly the idea Relief pitchers are failed starters who are thrown into situations favorable to their talents and don't get too face batters more than once.

Apparently you believe this?

The concept of " ... favorable to their talents ... " is not irrelevant.
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  #20  
Old Oct 26th 2008, 10:47 pm
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Originally Posted by SkullKey View Post
" ...Was he not great for the Cubs this past year? ..."

No. He was good, not great. 70+ innings, 5 wins: that's not great. He has a great arm; results are spotty. He's never won over 11 games.

" ...Didn't he stay relatively healthy this past season? ..."

No **** Sherlock! Considering that he posted a total of slightly over 70 innings in the 2 previous years combined he was a pillar of health. A paragon of vitality. Explain to me how you expect it to continue? He has never approached his career high of 190 innings (when he was 22) since. What makes you think, as you stated once, that he is a 180 - 200 inning type guy. Unfortunately he is a DL candidate deluxe. His innings need to be minimized to maximize his value and effectiveness.

" ...But isn't 6 very good innings better then 1 very good inning? ..." Why? Why does everybody discount relief pitching? 9 solid innings are needed every game.

" ...Pitching in consecutive days may not be an option for Harden anyway...."

Why not? Just more egotistical blathering on your part? Nobody will ever know until he tries to pitch on consecutive days.

" ...A dominant starting pitcher is much more valuable then any kind of reliever. Rich Harden is a dominant starting pitcher. And as a domnant starting pitcher he's in his most productive and valuable role to his team. ..."

The first sentence may not be true. You essentially imply that a Jason Marquis is more likely to help a given team produce a winning record than a Bruce Sutter. Balderdash!

The second sentence is true. If you, in your infinite wisdom, could give me compelling facts that Rich can pitch 180+ innings I will also argue he should stay in the rotation.

The third sentence in nonsense given his history of non-availability.
Ok Over The Top Jackson. Take a deep breath and debate like an adult. ..... First off Harden was great for the Cubs. He went 5-1 posted and ERA of 1.77 allowed just 39 hits in 71 innings while striking out 89 and walking 30. That's great! ..... Everyone knows Harden is injury prone. It doesn't take Dan Rather to inform us of that. But this season he took a step forward. He was under a new offseason work out program. And it payed off. He made 25 starts and pitched close to 150 innings. That's the most he's pitched since he was 22(190 innings). He's still just 26 years old. The fact that he pitched under 80 innings in 2 previous seasons to 2008 shows how much progress he's made. The next step is making 30 starts and pitching 190 innings. ..... Yes we all know 9 solid innings are needed every day. Thank you for that tidbit. But the guy that starts the game for you and dictates the outcome(Harden) is more important then the guy who pitches just 1 inning. Because in the 1 inning the game may be in doubt. Starting pitching is the most important part to a baseball team. It's also no coincidence that the best pitchers in the league are starting pitchers. Or that a player is usually demoted to the position of reliever because he can't cut it as a starter(Marmol, Rivera, Gagne, Hoffman). ..... You are right we will never know if Harden can pitch on consecutive days. That's why I very clearly said MAY NOT BE an option. It's not a given one way or the other. ..... Once again take a deep breath Over The Top Jackson. Your name calling and insults suggest that you get put off by people who actually know the game of baseball. You are that guy who is jelous of someone so you just disagree with them over any and everything. I'm willing to debate anything. Just grow a pair and go about it in a much different way. Name calling and insults are for people looking for arguments. I just wanna talk baseball.
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